I've been talking with Jason about this the other night. Now this just strikes me as strange plus honestly I just flat out don't like it. How many of you non-modular users have your clutch disengage/engage near to or at the top of the clutch pedal? Not only that but it's right when the clutch pedal starts to have pressure on it. So basically I'm going clutch free play to a little bit of pressure to clutch completely disengaged in roughly 2 inches pushing down on the clutch pedal.

When I was using the stock and the CFDF my clutch engage/disengage point was roughly 3/4 of the way down on the clutch pedal. Ever since I put in the non-modular clutchmasters stage 4 and clutchmasters flywheel it's been right at the top.

I've been thinking of ways to get the engagement point to move down further on the clutch pedal. I've come up with this really crazy solution but I haven't decided whether or not to try it. I was thinking adding spacers to where the slave cylinder is so that I'd have to press the clutch down further to reach the same spot to disengage the clutch. Now I don't really want to have to do that if some one can give me a better solution for this.

Excellent post, Thura. As per our aim conversation....we are thinking alike.

On that note, as I stated to Thura, while Chrysler decided to only implement modular clutches, the same decision had to play a part in why our clutch pedals have virtually no adjustment ability.

Therefore, if I ever plan to swap clutches again, modular would really be the way to go, unless you are willing to do the above modification that Thura noted.

I have a non-modular Clutchmasters clutch (w/ Fidanza flywheel) and I adjusted the clutch to perfect using the clutch pedal rod on the clutch master cylinder, untighten the lock nut and then turn the rod to adjust the clutch pedal engagement.

Really, I tried to adjust that rod and didn't have any success?

So you're saying that the nut on the master cylinder rod is actually adjustable? I guess I'll try a little harder.

I must be a little clueless on this one. I just went out and looked at the portion of the MC that is inside the firewall but I didn't see a nut to adjust the MC clutch arm rod. Where is this exactly ...

Well I don't know about adjusting anything so post up if you have pic's. But my CM stage 4 non modular does the same thing. 2 inches from the top of the pedal and it's disingaged, plus it has no pressure in the pedal. I have been looking like I have never driven a 5 speed before because of how touchy this thing is. I'm getting better but I would love for this thing to enguage around the stock height.

Okay, I went out there today and was able to get that nut loose. You need both a 14mm and a 12mm to break it loose. It's obviously on the inside of the firewall, that links the master cylinder ("MC") rod to the pedal. It's hard to see the nut as it's behind the link which mates thes MC rod and the pedal assembly. I was able to adjust the pedal some, but really not enough to make up for the difference I need.

On that note, I tried a few washers on the slave cylinder mating point with the tranny, and it wasn't enough. Especially, after turning the MC rod back tot he stock position. I did because I figured too much adjustment might have overdone it. I think tomorrow, I'll try and space it out some more. There has to be a point of spacing that won't require the pedal to engage so high. I'm determined at this point! :) I will need a longer than ~50mm bolt there to accomplish it though.

Be careful when spacing that slave cylinder out, as there is a piston inside that, and the end of the cylinder is completely open, the end with the boot covering it. It you take off that boot, you will see a goldish colered piston, and then the rod that just rests on top of that, that pushes on the fork. If you space that too far out, IMO, you run the risk of pushing out that piston out of the cylinder body..I dont think there is a whole lot we can do with a hydrolic system, but if you can figure it out, you da man! :thumbsup

After talking with Jason some more the other night, it's our best guess that the reason the non-mod setups end up with this problem has to due with the difference in thickness between the the stock flywheel + stock flexplate vs. the new non-mod flywheel by itself.

Anyone got this stuff seperated out already? I'd be curious to see how much of a difference this makes. I'm planning on adjusting my clutch/slave cylinder tonight. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

I'm using a stock pressure plate, stock flywheel, and flexplate, with a custom ceramic disk. Its the disk "cushion" that gives you the immediate engagement. Since the ceramic facings are much harder than the stock organic facings, thats what causes this. This info comes directly from the custom clutch builder that made both mine, and Jason's clutch disks. Also, he says that when you use an upgraded pressure plate, with greater load over stock, that it will take more clutch pedal to work the clutch, eg. more pedal travel(to overcome greater clamping forces)

that it will take more clutch
>pedal to work the clutch, eg. more pedal travel(to overcome
>greater clamping forces)

Yes, but the problem with Thura and myself is that there isn't ENOUgh travel. It engages at the top of the pedal rather than waiting until the pedal has at least travelled half way down.

On that note, I was able to add some spacing nuts and washers to my slave cylinder mounting point. It helped A LOT!! My clutch actually engages halfway down or so. I could use about an inch or two more travel for it to be perfect, but at least now, it's much improved!!

More to come later. Great discussion fellas!
:thumbsup

Why not just have a linger slave cylinder rod made? It wouldn't be all that tough...
-=B-=

Actually, if anything, we'd need a shorter one.

Again, our problem isn't the same as 1g guys needing more travel. We just have too much! :o

Hey Jason, what pressure plate and flywheel are you using?? Just curious. I know we are both using the same exact clutch disk...My clutch is right at the top, but it started out in the middle, but my guess is that there was air in the system, that finally bled out..I'm actually getting used to it like this, and now that i think about it, why move the pedal point more downward? Being at the top, makes for really quick shifts, since you dont have to use much pedal travel at all...and it wont affect the clutch's grip ability if its at the top too. I dont know, i think its kinda nice to have it right at the top?

The 95' neon flywheel and the SACHS pressure plate IIRC. Either the SACHS or the LUK, I can't remember which.

Yeah, I didn't mind the engagement point at the top either, but I got to thinking. What if the pressure plate is never really fully engaging or released because the TO bearing is applying a small amount of pressure without even applying pressure to the clutch pedal. Not a large amount or anything, and certainly not enough to prevent the flywheel from engaging the clutch disk, but just a little so as to encourage slippage under high HP situations, or enough to cause some lost efficiency for the pressure plate.

Hence, it was my goal, not to cause the engagement point to be dropped down to the stock-like position a few inches above the floor, but at least enough, so I'm convinced that the TO bearing isn't prematurely engaging the pressure plate before I want it to. I feel I've achieved that goal now through spacing out the slave cylinder about an inch and a half away from it's former mating point to the tranny. Now that I think about it, I could have used a shorter slave cylinder rod as was somewhat suggested by Bill. I'm just not that smart, I guess! :P

Yeah, you actually want slight amounts of pressure to be on the TOB. You can test if its hanging on the clutch just by pushing in that slave rod by hand. When it goes in, if the fork moves back with it, then you know its hanging up. I thought the same thing, thinking something from the hydrolics was hanging up my clutch, but that wanst the case. Even with small amounts of oil getting on my clutch, it still graps hard as hell...IMO, i woulndt worry too much about it, unless it just bugs the crap outa ya! Oh yeah, i'll prob hit you up later to chat about taking apart the tranny and putting it back together..since you just did it :)

Yeah, definitely hit me up! I'll give you the heads up! I wish I knew then what I know now.

Give me a call if you want. I think the other Matt has my digits.

Just so you guys know there should be between 1-3 mm of play in the clutch pedal before the rod *starts* getting pushed on, if there isn't !you need to! adjust the stop bolt for the clutch so that it can come out further, otherwise you are building up pressure in your clutch master cylinder and not fully engaging the clutch disc.

I do ... just when the rod starts to move the clutch is already starts to disengage (if it wasn't partially disengaged to begin with). So I'm attempting to move that point a little so that the rod can move a little and the clutch still be fully engaged.

How would you test to see if this is what's going on? My friction point is at the very top of the pedal too and I want to make sure I'm not screwing anything up. Also you are just talking about adjusting the rod that's inside the car right?

If you want to make sure your adjustment isn't screwing anything up, then back the stop bolt (in front and above the clutch pedal) so that it does not touch the clutch pedal at all, if you had to move it a far distance that is not a good sign at all, then move it back down untill you can only move the pedal 1-3mm before it gets *any* resistance from the rod, it should be 1-3mm of play within the cotter pin.

I don't have it with me at the moment but it lists the tolerances that the master cylinder rod should be adjusted to in the Chiltons manual.

know what I have the same problem with my LuK modular clutch I think I should just adjust that nut shouldn't I? There's not a lotta room left to adjust on it. I don't think it'll solve the problem of when it starts to engage it does it right away though.

Give the slave cylinder spacer mod a try. I worked pretty well for Jason and I.

I just wanted to pipe in and say I did this and I think it helped in more ways than one. I was getting some chatter from the TO bearing while the clutch was not in, after the spacer mod it no longer chatters, and the engagement point is much more comfortable.

>Give the slave cylinder spacer mod a try. I worked pretty
>well for Jason and I.

i'm going to be getting MotoFool's custom non-modular stage 4 clutch with a fidanza flywheel sometime soon... i'll probably have to space out the slave cylinder too. how many washers/how far should it be spaced? the slave cylinder is the thing on the front/bottom of the transmission that's attached by 2 bolts that pushes the little lever that disappears into the bellhousing through the rubber protector thingy and moves the clutch, right? just making sure...

yeah ner, thats your slave cyl. I'm still running a stock clutch and 12 psi of boost. I don't think its sliped on me yet! :thumbsup

Hey Kirby, where is a link to the spacer mod? I get chatter from my brand new TB when the clutch is all the way out, let me know man!

acctually the chatter is back, I don't know if I just couldn't hear it or what, but I'm going to try a little more spacing and see what it does. It does seem to be a little less noisy though.

How do you space the clutch slave cylinder?

If you hear that chatter when the clutch is out(not depressed) and in N, but goes away when you step on the cltuch, then that is either a input shaft bearing, or the output shaft bearing. If you hear chatter only when you are on the clutch, then that is usually the TOB. The chatter of the input/output bearings kinda sounds like piston slap in a way. A metalic knocking/clacking..

ok this might be dumb but sence were using a neon clutch and flywheel will there slave cylinder work also. I mean it should be the right length on the rod for that setup shouldnt it. Will something like this work or should i just space out the slace cyl

If I remember correctly the neon slave cylinder is cable operated (on most years) not hydrolic like ours. So I don't think that would work. I'd just use spacers if you have the same problem that some of us have run into.

>If you hear that chatter when the clutch is out(not
>depressed) and in N, but goes away when you step on the
>cltuch, then that is either a input shaft bearing, or the
>output shaft bearing.

I just got a new transmission put in (and they put in my Fidanza Flywheel and CM Stage 1 Clutch for me since the tranmission was out) about 6 months ago, it's always mad that metal sound w/ the clutch out in neutral, is that bad? How could it be the output shaft bearing if that doesn't even move when the tranny is in neutral?

The output shaft bearing I'm talking about is the PITA bearing that makes it hard to put the tarnny cases back togerher? The output shaft is directly connected to the input shaft. So when the input shaft is turning, the output shaft is turning. Both of these are always turning, whenever you are in N with the clutch out, or when you are moving in gear. The differential bearings are the actual "output" bearings, meaning those only move when the car is moving (through the assortment of internal gears and whatnot). The output shaft/bearings is what is the "input" to all the differnt gear teeth, then from the gear teeth, to the diff. Hope this makes a little sense. I have my trans apart now, so its cool to see how it all works..

Would the bearing effect performance? Or is it just annoying as hell? P.O.S. Professional Transmission who put a P.O.S. "new rebuilt" transmission in my car. I will drop the tranny myself and have a new bearing pressed in, but I was wondering if I should go ahead and do that or wait till my new CM clutch wears out to drop it.

Can you give me your opinion XtremeRS?

The input shaft bearing, bellhousing side, if worn too much, can possibly cause oil to get past the oil seal, and leak onto the cluthc. OR the oil seal can just get worn, and leak. I would just keep an eye on it too see if its leaking at all. You can easily check it by peeling back the rubber dust boot on the bellhousing, right by the slave cylinder, and shine a flashlight in there. You should be albe to notice any oil residue on the input shaft..you have to look really good though..I dont think it will hurt performance at all, but if oil is getting on the clutch, then slipping will def hurt you..

Wow, that explains a lot, like why there was oil on the clutch fork and slave cylinder push rod, and.... why my new CM clutch was slipping under hard accerlation like when cornering. If this new transmission is still under Mopar warranty does it cover that? Do you think it would be void since I'm not using a factory clutch/flywheel?

I'm having the high pedal engagement syndrome and I know quite a few of the guys are having this problem also along with chatter from the tranny. As you all can tell I've been doing my search and this post helps explain both. So I brought this from the dead to help out the other guys who dont use search. Enjoy. Btw, Thura how is that adjustment working out for you?

Hmmm, I thought that I would have to adjust the slave cylinder, but I guess not. The non-modular clutch has always engaged about where it should.:shrug

mine starts engaging as soon as you feel resistance on the pedal, which is about 2 inches down. I just want to have the same piece of mind as Thura and make sure my throwout bearing is not exerting and force on the pp.