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Forum nameReal Racing
Topic subjectNot in the 14s...yet...
Topic URLhttp://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=11&topic_id=6180
6180, Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Went to the track tonight. Kind of a bittersweet night. First, Im pretty happy with my car, its definately got some power to it. But Im a little disappointed I didnt even hit 14.9. Heres a vid of one run...



Thats a buddy of mine driving the Honda. It has a B16A2, DOHC VTEC, street tuned on Hondata. He ran a 15.45@91mph. On to my slip..




Ready for my ricer excuses? lol.

86 degrees out today. Intake temps around 130F after heat soak.
Sticking brake caliper.
Fully loaded GS. Only removed spare tire and tools, still a tank.
Needed a few more runs to experiment with launching, shifting points.
Most impact: NO traction.
First gear spun off the line until about 40 MPH. I had a decent 60', but I think if I were to hook right off the line I would drop my time way down.
6181, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 420agreenvilleSC, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
you have an LSD?
6182, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Nope. The tranny, block, pretty much everything except the clutch and head are stock and have 170,700 miles on them.

I just checked my datalog from a run... My injectors are at 106% duty cycle...hmm...
6183, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by PsychO, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Hey, that's not bad at all. Weren't you in the 16's before? I think a long tube header would be a nice addition.
6184, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by cougar694u, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Seat time will def improve your times. There's some room to be gained in the 60', imo. What helped me most was not launching quite as hard to get the tires to stick. If I had excessive wheel spin, it tacked on at least .25 to my time, sometimes more. Of course, I speed shifted, almost trying to break something (I'm like that now in my mustang, but at least the shifter has stops).

I didn't really strip much out of my car either, though. The typical spare tire & jack, etc, and the hatch didn't have the wiper motor in it when I bought it.

I'm sure you're making more power than mine did, just get as much tree time as you can, the car's only as fast as the driver.

Other than that, good job! :thumbsup

**EDIT**
Actually, after looking over your time-slip, it seems like your car's not putting the power down in the big end.

I haven't been around much in the last few years (moving, work, marriage, kids, etc), so I don't know what all you've played with for tuning, but have you played with cam timing at all?
6187, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by cougar694u
**EDIT** Actually, after looking over your time-slip, it seems like your car's not putting the power down in the big end. I haven't been around much in the last few years (moving, work, marriage, kids, etc), so I don't know what all you've played with for tuning, but have you played with cam timing at all?


No, the cam gears are stock. For the most part, I wanted to see what I could do with the Crowers zero'd out. I think I see a set of Fidanza gears in my future though..
6188, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by cougar694u, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
I think I see a set of Fidanza gears in my future though..

I would. Being able to retard both cams 2* could help, I know it did for me.
6185, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by Fotowntalon, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Comparing my time slip to yours they look about the same (which I guess I should expect sense I was only about 1/10th quicker) But from how it sounds, you need practice launching, which I am guessing you already know, while your 60' wasn't bad it can always be better. Are you pre-loading your drive-train(e-brake on and clutch slightly out)? What rpms are you launching at? I know when I wasn't pre-loading the drive-train I had to launch around 2.25-2.5k rpms to get that little bit of squeal and then catch.

Also at the track weight makes a huge difference. This year I plan on even siphoning out my windshield wiper fluid and removing the passenger seat. But if it makes you feel better for my run I had the backseats removed and only a 1/4 of a tank of gas (which was still more than I wanted). Also I believe you said you are running stock tires. I'm not sure if you did anything to them, but all my research says that our stock tires (and most street) tires preform better if you DON'T do a burn out and if you keep them inflated correctly. Everyone is normally all over deflating the tires, but this is for certain street tires and drag radials. So hope that helps some.

Lastly, don't give up, I don't know if you saw all my time-slips last year but my first one I ran a 16.891 and just through practice of launching and shifting did i get it down. I don't know how far away your track is, but if its far, I'd go out into the country with no one around and practice launching, just from 0to40-60mph. It will improve your launches and still be rather safe sense you are not speeding, but still stay safe and don't give up!

*Edit*
Forgot to mention, not sure what your rev limiter is with MS, but I was shifting at about 7300 for that little extra oomph, that might help you as well, best way to determine this would be to look at your dyno and see when your power band starts to fall off
6186, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Fotowntalon
Comparing my time slip to yours they look about the same (which I guess I should expect sense I was only about 1/10th quicker) But from how it sounds, you need practice launching, which I am guessing you already know, while your 60' wasn't bad it can always be better. Are you pre-loading your drive-train(e-brake on and clutch slightly out)? What rpms are you launching at? I know when I wasn't pre-loading the drive-train I had to launch around 2.25-2.5k rpms to get that little bit of squeal and then catch. Also at the track weight makes a huge difference. This year I plan on even siphoning out my windshield wiper fluid and removing the passenger seat. But if it makes you feel better for my run I had the backseats removed and only a 1/4 of a tank of gas (which was still more than I wanted). Also I believe you said you are running stock tires. I'm not sure if you did anything to them, but all my research says that our stock tires (and most street) tires preform better if you DON'T do a burn out and if you keep them inflated correctly. Everyone is normally all over deflating the tires, but this is for certain street tires and drag radials. So hope that helps some. Lastly, don't give up, I don't know if you saw all my time-slips last year but my first one I ran a 16.891 and just through practice of launching and shifting did i get it down. I don't know how far away your track is, but if its far, I'd go out into the country with no one around and practice launching, just from 0to40-60mph. It will improve your launches and still be rather safe sense you are not speeding, but still stay safe and don't give up! *Edit* Forgot to mention, not sure what your rev limiter is with MS, but I was shifting at about 7300 for that little extra oomph, that might help you as well, best way to determine this would be to look at your dyno and see when your power band starts to fall off


I used to preload my suspension the way you said, but I felt like I got better 60 times just launching normal, like 4k. I have 16" GST wheels on my car, but I have a set of 14" RS wheels to use at the track. Last year, 20 PSI with a burnout in the box would hook up with almost no spin. This year, all first gear did was spin. I only got 3 runs though, so I didnt have much time to experiment. I took out my 200lb sub box and spare tire/jack, some other junk in my car. Felt more free, but still really heavy. As for my limiter, I have it set about 7500, but in first my datalog shows max RPM as 7700. My 3 runs went 15.7, 15.6, 15.5. The first run I tried speed shifting and SLAMMED into the limiter in 2nd, scrubbing off all my momentum. I cant remember if I speed shifted my 15.5 run. Next time I go to the track Im going to try launching like 2.5k RPM, speed shifting around 7300.
6189, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 420agreenvilleSC, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
once you start moving passed the stock parts you have to aftermarket, like cam gears, lsd, etc., you'll be approaching bullett power.
6190, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by bullettdsm, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
... My injectors are at 106% duty cycle...hmm...


I find this interesting. You should not be even close to 100%. Hell you should be at most near 80. This may an indicator of injector problems. I just don't like that........

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
but I have a set of 14" RS wheels to use at the track.

Get rid of those things they're killing you, blah.

Originally posted by cougar694u
Being able to retard both cams 2* could help, I know it did for me.

Agreed. Seems to be the sweet spot.


Looks like she's doing OK, You'd be surprised to what dropping down to 2.0 launches will do for your 1/4. I strongly dislike your trap speed. Should be a minimun of 5mph higher. I wonder what going on there with the duty cycle and the trap?

You didn't have much time to work on shift points, so its hard to talk about those. Of course speed shifting will gain you tenths over not speed shifting (but I know you are already doing that).

And, yes, you need to go on a diet (not you your car. You go on a diet and you'll fuckin disappear). Weight is a killer at the track.
6191, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by cougar694u, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by bullettdsm
I strongly dislike your trap speed. Should be a minimun of 5mph higher.


That's exactly what I was thinking.
6192, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by bullettdsm
I find this interesting. You should not be even close to 100%. Hell you should be at most near 80. This may an indicator of injector problems. I just don't like that........

Get rid of those things they're killing you, blah.

Agreed. Seems to be the sweet spot. Looks like she's doing OK, You'd be surprised to what dropping down to 2.0 launches will do for your 1/4. I strongly dislike your trap speed. Should be a minimun of 5mph higher. I wonder what going on there with the duty cycle and the trap? You didn't have much time to work on shift points, so its hard to talk about those. Of course speed shifting will gain you tenths over not speed shifting (but I know you are already doing that). And, yes, you need to go on a diet (not you your car. You go on a diet and you'll fuckin disappear). Weight is a killer at the track.


Thanks for looking this over for me, I always await your input on anything I do with this car. Im not sure whats going on with my injectors, maybe dirty or something? I can email you the datalog file if you want to see it, see if you can spot something I cant.

I have a set of 15" Nitto drag radials, looking for some 15" wheels to put them on.

I wasnt happy with my trap speed either. Last year my best was 16.0@86mph. This year, 15.5@86mph. I was like WTF? Im sure a 91mph trap would get me a 15.0 or maybe a magical 14.99999.

Next time I go Im going to shoot for a 2.1 or 2.0 60' and speed shift around 7300 as apposed to my rev limit of 7500. Also see what else I can gut out, but still have it DD'able.
6193, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by bullettdsm, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
I can email you the datalog file if you want to see it, see if you can spot something I cant.


Doesn't hurt

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
I have a set of 15" Nitto drag radials, looking for some 15" wheels to put them on.

Too bad you don't live closer. You could bum wheels from me. I even have a set of 15" steelies with 26's on them.


Originally posted by 740 turbo brick Next time I go Im going to shoot for a 2.1 or 2.0 60' and speed shift around 7300 as apposed to my rev limit of 7500.

Now you shouldn't be shifting at the same point for each gear right? I would imagine......wait, post up your curve so we can take a look at your range.

6195, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
6194, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by Fotowntalon, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Also see what else I can gut out, but still have it DD'able.


Just remember being a dd, and being at the track two different things. I wouldn't want to drive around without a passenger seat on a daily basis, but removing the passenger seat, and backseats is sooo incredibly simply and quick. The passenger seat i believe is 40lbs and the back seats is 35lbs roughly, just taking both those out is an easy 75lbs. I'm highly obsessive over weight loss so if you want some tips about it, just pm me =P
6196, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by cougar694u, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Fotowntalon
just taking both those out is an easy 75lbs.


General rule of thumb is 0.1s per 100lbs, so that should shave off about 0.07s of your time.
6197, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by bullettdsm, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Tell your tuner to extend the pull past peak power down the "down slope". That's info that we want when trying to figure out shift points. But looking at the curve and extrapolating from that, I would say that you are shifting too late. You may make 7300 on the 1 to 2 but you should be lower on the 2 to 3. You aren't getting to 4th correct? Do you have any pulls that show your 7k to 7.4k area?
6198, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Tell your tuner to extend the pull past peak power down the "down slope". That's info that we want when trying to figure out shift points. But looking at the curve and extrapolating from that, I would say that you are shifting too late. You may make 7300 on the 1 to 2 but you should be lower on the 2 to 3. You aren't getting to 4th correct? Do you have any pulls that show your 7k to 7.4k area?


We actually were, we were taking to limit, 7500. For some reason the Dyno wouldnt let us print it out beyond 7000. He set the cutoff limit for it at 7500 and it would still stop the test at 7. The graph showed it going back down almost exactly after 7, which I thought was weird because arent crower 2s supposed to keep making power even after factory redline? But yeah, I am still in 3rd gear with a thousand and a half RPM to go when I go thru the traps. I shift about rev limit on 1st, and did on 2nd too. I will try to shift like 7 or so on 2-3 next time.
6199, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Hmm....Remember one of my ricer excuses, sticking brake caliper??

Yesterday I drove around town for maybe 10 mins and came home. I could smell the brakes burning and when I put my hand on the wheel (pass. front) I almost lost some fingerprints. Way to hot to touch for more than a second, and this was the spokes on GST wheels...

I jacked it up and took the caliper off, pumped the brakes a few times to get the piston extended. There was a light coat of surface rust all around it. So I took some PB blaster and 1000 grit sand paper and removed the rust/lubed it up. Worked the piston in and out a few more times and put it back together. I must say, now the car feels like a totally different car. I guess it had been so long since I drove it every day I forgot what it felt like to actually glide in neutral. I need half the throttle to stay at a constant speed, and I noticed the car wanted to roll when I let off the brakes, as opposed to before where it wouldnt, and it took some force to get it moving.

So for my next track day, hopefully, next week, Im going to try some things:
First off, not have a sticking brake caliper (how much could I have lost from that?)
Shifting maybe around 72 73 from 1-2, and 7k 2-3.
Different launching techniques. Ill try a traffic light launch and a slip n dump launch, see what yields better results.
Also, I wont be using the RS wheels. Ill be running my GST wheels with 205/55/16s. Ill try full tire pressure first, and lower it if needed.
Im shooting for at least a 90 mph trap.
6204, RE: Not in the 14s...yet...
Posted by 740 turbo brick, Dec-31-69 06:00 PM
Track was rained out last week. Im going this Wednesday, sunny skies in forcast.
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