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Top 2GNT Technical Turbo/Nitrous Tech topic #949
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Subject: "Lots of negative talk about HRC on DSMtalk.com..." Previous topic | Next topic
TeamJeff_99gsJan-15-01 04:56 PM
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#949, "Lots of negative talk about HRC on DSMtalk.com..."




          

A friend posted asking about the HRC Super 16G vs. the Big 16G from RRE and there were a slew of people who all trounced the super 16G and HRC. At first I got kinda angry, but then I got kind of worried...I am planning on the HRC stage 1 as soon as warm weather hits. I know they have done the most research for our engines, and that is great to know, and I'm not trying to bash HRC at all...it just seems that there has been a lot of negative talk lately...both from NT and turbo drivers.
2700rpm is perfect lag for me it seems, but the one person who posted with a positive reply to the turbo said he boosted fully after 3K rpm.
Jason, and anyone else with the Super 16G, any thoughts on the kit and the customer service at HRC? I was completely set on HRC stage 1 after months and months of research, but I'm starting to lean towards that Star FMIC again....

I know it is for a 4g63 application, but its still the same turbo. HRC Engineering might want to take a look too. I can literally spend hours on the HRC website...I really like what the company has done, and I hate seeing their reputation get blemished like that. Here is the link in case anyone wants to check it out. A search for HRC came up with many of the same responses...
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5033

Jeff

http://gs.dsmpower.com


  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Lots of negative talk about HRC on DSMtalk.com..., Team96NOS_Eclipse, Jan-15-01 05:20 PM, #1
yeah I know..., TeamJasonESi_T, Jan-15-01 05:23 PM, #2
I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., Armond30, Jan-15-01 05:56 PM, #3
      RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., silvergs T, Jan-16-01 04:15 AM, #4
      RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., VendorHRC, Jan-16-01 07:03 AM, #5
      RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., VendorHRC, Jan-16-01 07:08 AM, #6
      RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., VendorHRC, Jan-16-01 07:10 AM, #7
           RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., BoostnRS, Jan-16-01 09:34 AM, #8
           RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., Team96NOS_Eclipse, Jan-16-01 09:42 AM, #9
           RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., VendorHRC, Jan-16-01 12:10 PM, #10
                RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..., Moderatorjuan, Jan-16-01 06:43 PM, #12
           Ah, glad you cleared that up., Armond30, Jan-16-01 04:36 PM, #11
                Shootout...., TeamJeff_99gs, Jan-17-01 04:52 PM, #13
                     RE: Shootout...., VendorHRC, Jan-18-01 03:55 AM, #14

Team96NOS_EclipseJan-15-01 05:20 PM
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#950, "RE: Lots of negative talk about HRC on DSMtalk.com..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

That actually happens alot with 4g63 owners but i'm still leaning towards a hrc kit as far as turboing my car goes.
Ray
96 Eclipse Base Model
Best 14.6@93 w/60 shot


1997 Eclipse RS
1991 Eclipse GSX
1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
1989 Dodge Daytona 2.5 turbo
(tinker car)
1996 Eclipse base model RIP

  

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TeamJasonESi_TJan-15-01 05:23 PM
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#951, "yeah I know..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've long seen that negative HRC talk on DSMtalk.com about HRC. It's other places as well including some groups I've read about. I personally haven't experienced anything of the sort as well as others. It seems though that there's a large consensus amongst many 4g63 owners that HRC provides poor customer support and their "super" turbos aren't so super. (they've always been there and answered my questions...)

I'm not sure why they're not happy with it as far as spool up speed/lag. I can honestly say that my turbo spools up REALLY fast. I really do try and pay attention when I can to see how fast it spools and its hard since it comes on so quick and really throws you back. It has been right around or before 2600-2800 rpms though and somewhat dependent on gear. I just put in a 2.5" mandrel bent piping, so it even spools faster(if that's possible) and the top-end is just really, really mean now. The main thing is, I don't ever feel like I'm waiting for the turbo to kick in b/c it already has. Also, I know the 4000 rpm range has to be the happy spot though with this turbo. At that rpm point, it just feels like you could take off with the turbo boost.

Now, I know that my compression ratio is higher than the 4g63 bunch, so my turbo probably spools faster than theirs, but if you take a gander at "Tractionless in PA" and you'll find he's a big supporter of the Super 16g turbo. Take a look at some of his past posts and you'll see how much he likes it. In addition, that guy's setup is about as complete as they come. Also, I've seen many others step up for this turbo like some in SpeedExtremeties.com. IIRC, there's some guy who's just about the fastest one there who has it.

Anyways, with people like Joe A., Chris M., and Armond who all have pretty big setups using this turbo successfully, that's good enough for me. I guess you'll just have to go on gut feeling and see what happens though. In the end, you'll be the one paying the money.

Oh, and if I were HRC, I wouldn't even support those guys anymore. Sure they buy HRC's intercooler pipes, intercoolers, and downpipes all the time, but if they're not going to step up and say anything nice, I would just stick with the 420a crowd.


Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

_____________________________________
Jason ESi-T

04' BMW 325Ci
91' Nissan 240SX
98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)

  

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Armond30Jan-15-01 05:56 PM
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#952, "I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

the reason I say that is this.......if you look at a "big" 16g from RRE and a "super" 16g from hahn, and look at the stats for both from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries..........it's the same frickin turbo! They honestly can't say one's better than the other without having personal prefrence thrown in there. they both use the same housing, same turbine (td05H) and as far as I know, the same compressor wheel. the only thing that I can think of that migh tbe different is that hahn's super turbos have COMPLETLY internal wastegates (you can't see the valve from the outside of the turbo). I honestly think that is a plus, because they have elimited any chances of boost creep. Road///race engineering has done a lot with 4g63's and they are one of the leaders in the industriy, but arguing big 16 over super 16 is kinda like saying 'whose free flow 3" exhaust is better'.

have fun!

  

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silvergs TJan-16-01 04:15 AM
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#953, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 3


          

I'm with Jason on this, I too have the HRC stage 1 and the turbo starts spooling between 2600-2800 rpms. No problem with the turbo not spooling pretty quick but maybe it is because of the compression difference. I don't know, but my experience with the HRC kit with the super 16g on my 420a has been amazing, not on a 4g63 engine so I don't know. I love the HRC kit and I definetly support HRC. They have taken the most time to research our engine to its fullest potential. They have been one of the first comapnies and probably are still the only company to listen to us non-turbo DSMers cries for speed. Instead of hearing the one thing we all dread "sell it and buy a turbo model" they took the time and invested in all of us. But hey, it is a case by case experience, but in my experience its thumbs up!!

  

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VendorHRCJan-16-01 07:03 AM
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#954, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 4




          

Thanks for the positive comments, gents. I also welcome less than positive comments: even if they are not all accurate, they are always insightful for me.

I have posted to the dsm.talk board a response that I would like anyone who is interested to take a look at.

Jason brings up an entertaining point: let the 4G6 guys go, and concentrate on ya'all. Current obligations prevent this from occurring, and we do still have a very supportive group of 4G6 owners as well. Problem is, satisfied customers are less likely to post than ones with an axe to grind, and so goes the wonder of the Internet. 4G6 DSM owners have many more options to choose from, and are therefore also exposed to the opinions of those companies. Business can be a cutthroat thing, and "opinions" may not reflect the truth. What they usually do reflect is a bias towards what the vendor has to offer, sometimes at the expense of truth. So be it: this is a free market, with consumers free to make their choices based on whatever they wish, even if they use astrology! We will simply do our earnest best to both provide excellent product and service, and address situations where they occur as needed. Vigilance is key, and we are most appreciative of being informed of information that needs to be addressed like this. Thanks for your help!

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

  

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VendorHRCJan-16-01 07:08 AM
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#955, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 3




          

A quick clarification: the turbos we sell are not the same as the ones other sell. All our Super turbos use the 10CM2 turbine housing, which we chose over the more restrictive 7 and 8CM2 models others sell. We chose 10CM2 based on the shortcomings we discovered with boost creep and excessive exhaust back pressure with the 7 and 8cm2 series. It flat works, and for any loss of low end (which most cars can't use w/o spinning tires more, the Super more than pays back in big end HP and lowered backpressure for more HP per PSI of boost.

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

  

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VendorHRCJan-16-01 07:10 AM
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#956, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 3




          

A quick clarification: the turbos we sell for factory turbo DSM are not the "same fricking thing" as the ones other sell. All our Super turbos use the 10CM2 turbine housing, which we chose over the more restrictive 7 and 8CM2 models others sell. We chose 10CM2 based on the shortcomings we discovered with boost creep and excessive exhaust back pressure with the 7 and 8cm2 series. It flat works, and for any loss of low end (which most cars can't use w/o spinning the tires even more), the Super more than pays back in big end HP and lowered backpressure for more HP per PSI of boost.

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

  

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BoostnRSJan-16-01 09:34 AM
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#957, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 7


          

To back HRC.. Some of these guys with these 16g turbos most likely have different exhaust setups... Some, stock, some lightly modded, some turbo back exhausts.. It all depends..
Your turbo will spool a heck of a lot quicker with a 2.5" turboback exhaust, then a stock exhaust !!

Just something to keep in mind..



  

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Team96NOS_EclipseJan-16-01 09:42 AM
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#958, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 7


          

LAST EDITED ON 16-Jan-01 AT 02:42 PM (PST)

This same topic was also discussed on the AT-DSM onelist email list, and more often then not, HRC got bashed. Most of it was because of customer service/price and less because of quality.
It was also started by the same person with the auto 4g63.
The poor guy was looking for honest info from people with experience with the turbo, not people who just want to give their .02.
I think a lot of the controversy has to do with what HRC has done for the n/t's, most of the 4g63 crowd doesn't want to admit that a 420a can be as fast or faster than an already turboed car.
We have experienced more problems with modding our AWD with just minor mods (very picky) than with anything we have thrown at the n/t.
Makes you wonder......

Michelle


96 Eclipse Base Model
Best 14.6@93 w/60 shot


1997 Eclipse RS
1991 Eclipse GSX
1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
1989 Dodge Daytona 2.5 turbo
(tinker car)
1996 Eclipse base model RIP

  

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VendorHRCJan-16-01 12:10 PM
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#959, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 9




          

I have just discovered the extent of dsmtalk, and I can see I have some work to do with these fellas. Thanks for your support here on 2GNT. The bias problem is certainly an issue between 4G6 and 420a. Back when I proposed to turbo the 420A, some well-known Mitsu aftermarket industry experts told me I was insane: that the 420a was a loser and I would be very sorry. I courteously thanked them for their input (conjecture though it was) and replied that, based upon my initial evaluation of the engine, I would proceed and learn for myself its viability.

Since that time, when the facts became undeniable, some of these experts have begun offering 420A turbos to their customers. Vindication is sweet, but other effects of proving experts wrong may be afoot. Let's just say I may have lost some friends in the DSM industry by being right.

Frankly, the amount of effort I have given to the 4G6 crowd has slipped lately while we continue to pursue new horizions with the 420a. Maybe that hurt some feelings, but it is about to change,as we do have some new product in development for them (and you guys too!).

In any case, my examination of dsmtalk so far has revealed that only a handful of posters are responsible for the bulk of the flaming and misinformation. It is a shame that the opinions of a few can taint the perceptions of many more. We have served many thousands of customers over the last few years, and fully realize that a very small, but always present, group are nigh impossible to satisfy completely. They tend to be those whose expectations of service are unreasonably high, and actually have little experience to compare our approach to other companies and thus learn that maybe we ain't so bad after all. Experienced customers are my favorite: they are the most discerning in terms of the quality they seek, and they have realistic expectations based upon years of life experience.

In any case, the hard-to-satisfy types are out there. Now that I am aware of dsmtalk, I can keep an eye out for them and try to counter misinformation, as well as resolve genuine beefs that inevitably occur. Unresolved, sometimes undeserved beefs apparently tend to fester and boil for a long time if not addressed.

There are some real shady companies out there, but we are not one of them. Twenty five years in turbos and twelve years in business for myself has shown me what is right and wrong quite clearly. We don't grow every year because we are shysters. My family, employees and I work too hard to have our futures affected by attempts at hurting our livelihoods. Let it be known: if one doesn't talk to us (or me, I do have a phone) about a problem before posting potentially hurtful info, then one has both missed the chance to resolve the issue effectively and caused undeserved damage to us. Please call me first!

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

  

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ModeratorjuanJan-16-01 06:43 PM
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#960, "RE: I think it is just a personal prefrence fo theirs..."
In response to Reply # 10


          


Thats a very good point.

Many times I've seen people air their grievences on an open forum (like the TalonDigest, their local ClubDSM chapter board, or even here), without giving the vendor the benefit of trying to work out the problem. When this happens, the person usually ends up contacting the vendor, they resolve the problem, and then the person sheepishly apologizes to the list, regretting having caused a commotion.

By this point, the damage may have already been done. And, it has often made the individual look foolish in front of their peers.

So, if you are having a problem with a vendor, call/email/whatever them and try to work it out. Only if this fails should you consider airing the issue in public. The good vendors will usually be very cooperative.

juan



  

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Armond30Jan-16-01 04:36 PM
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#961, "Ah, glad you cleared that up."
In response to Reply # 7


          

I just assumed that the compressor and wheel were the same from eyeballing them (I was hanging out with a "big" 16G 97 GSX and a "super" 16 99 gs last saturday, and they just appeared to be the same size). Looked like they had the same markings. I know they both said td05H, that was the first thing I saw on the GSX. I still prefer the hahn turbos anyway

have fun!

  

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TeamJeff_99gsJan-17-01 04:52 PM
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#962, "Shootout...."
In response to Reply # 11




          

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would love to see HRC make it to the DSM shootout this year boasting the 11 second RS. It is time our motor got some undeniable respect...I can't think of a better place. We certainly need some turbo 420a representation there. If I can get my kit quick enough, I will be one of them I hope.


Jeff

http://gs.dsmpower.com


  

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VendorHRCJan-18-01 03:55 AM
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#963, "RE: Shootout...."
In response to Reply # 13




          

Alright, you've drawn me out now...I want to share a plan for the Shootout that I have been concocting for a while.

Would an interested party please start a new thread to discuss the shootout? I'll reveal my proposal there. This new thread is likely to be lively......in a good way!

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

  

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