i am running a hahn stage 2 setup with forged pistons, nitrous rings, and eagle rods. i am interested in nitrous, but should i buy a kit made for the turbo eclipse, or buy a universal kit, or what? i dont know exactly how nitrous works with a turbo. i searched, but cant find what im looking for. thanks

it works the same as it does on any other internal combustion engine, the forced induction doesn't change anything.

Buy a wet kit, install it. You're done.

______________________________
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'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
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Originally posted by CarbonFiberRST

Originally posted by DarkOne it works the same as it does on any other internal combustion engine, the forced induction doesn't change anything. Buy a wet kit, install it. You're done.

wow I didn't know it was this simple... or are you trying to trick him into blowing shit up?

-Chris
1999 Eclipse T-GS


2.4 Project is Officially underway

I heard to spray the IC, is this true?

.
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Oh no! My sig died! I'll get another one.
Member and Co-Founder of FLDSM

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

i was just wondering cuz nopi.com sells a kit for the eclipse turbo. what did you mean by spraying the intercooler? is that similar to spraying it with co2? and which brand is the best for nitrous? thanks

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

-Chris
1999 Eclipse T-GS


2.4 Project is Officially underway

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

You can run into tuning problems with spraying the fmic with n02 or c02. The lower IACs will through you off.

I would also reccomend a zex kit, the added saftey with the nitrous management unit is a nice saftey blanket since your boosted also...



Nick
97RS

Remember, a 35 shot of nitrous on a forced induction engine is like a 75 shot N/A. The nitrous significantly cools the compressed air temps.

Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician

Won't spraying the intercooler make the aluminum brittle after awhile?

if that were the case wouldnt the super hot gas going through it to be cooled do the same?

i am no metalurgist but i dont think that the spray is cold enough to change the harness properties of the metal

if it were then when you sprayed into your intake it would hurt the intake manifold as well

1996 eclipse GS-T
1968 Ford Mustang
2004 Suzuki GSXR600
2006 Honda CBR1000RR
Decisions Decisions

Before buying my nitrous kit I did as much research as I could on a few forums and websites and most people kept posting that only the 95 eclipse could use a dry and that the 96-99 needed a wet kit. I called venom performance and spoke to their tech guys and they said that usually that rule would apply if you have a regular style nitrous kit. But with computer controlled nitrous kits each injector is usually tapped into in order to monitor air to fuel mix ratio. In that case it doesn't matter if it's wet or dry. I was able to buy a venom vcn-1000 dry kit for my 96 Eclipse on ebay for $250 shipped.

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he kids you not, i don't exactly know how it works, but what i do know is my buddy had a 4g63, put it on the dyno, made 300 and some whp, did it with a 50 shot, got 400 some whp.

im guessing its because more was forced into the cylinders with each stroke, instead of just sucking it in if you were NA, or because the gas entering is so hot that the nitrous is able to cool it even better. but don't quote me on that

_____________________________________


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*form follows function*

Colder air = denser air. Denser air + more fuel = more power. Therefore the N2O cools the air and produces more power from the same air. But if your fuel system does not compensate for it then your screwed.

I edited to the wiki!

Exactly, this is the reason people tell you in general not to use nitrous on a turbocharged engine. If you don't compensate with the extra fuel you need over using a wet kit on a N/A engine kiss your motor bye bye. Don't even talk about a dry kit.

Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician

I know this is about adding nitrous...but if your engine is built...why not simply turn the boost up and tune accordingly.... I've never been a big fan of N20...

(Plus if you're making big power I've heard of people breaking axels easier because the thrust is more sudden, not as gradual like the turbo simply spooling up.)

Also...are you running a stock clutch? Big power needs big grip.

______________________________

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IRyanHester@Hotmail.com

'03 Mazda 6s

Still you havnt made your point of not being able to use just as much n20 on a non built motor. A 75shot at 7psi as long as you have the fuel should be fine. Its not like running 7more psi.

Can someone explain the logic?



Nick
97RS

Other topics to address would be the timing issues associated with A NO2 shot compiled with a boosted engine. In order to stave off detonation in a high boost engine you need to run a certain octane as well as a specific amount of timing and the proper amount of fuel. Withoout these three things working together you will most likely encounter problems *BOOM*. With these all set to a specific level, say, 21psi, as soon as you hit the NO2 shot, say, 100shot, you need to find some way to increase these levels, or the previous *BOOM* we discussed will occur. So you have the proper jet in the fuel solenoid, perfect. You spent the money and got a timing retard module or some other way of causeing the timing to retard when you hit the NO2, excellent. But you still have no way of uping the octane for the NO2 hit other than running too high an octane fuel all the time, correction, Propane. Yes I just introduced another thing for you to search and question and research and basically hurt your brain on. Why would one inject propane into a gasoline engine you ask, because it is an excellent form of on-demand octane booster, thats why. Other ways you could do this are to inject alchol, many people on the board are already doing this. Don't be scared by any of this, people have been compiling power-adder upon power-adder for years, just do A LOT of research before you buy anything.

Representing the Central Cali chapter of 2GNT!
(I think I'm the only member )

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

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91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

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I see where you getting at turby, but your not adding cylinder pressure, your not adding PSI.
You allowing more/denser air into the combustion. Causing your motor to become 100x more efficient. Hotter, yes... but more pressure? ';m not sure.

you can run a 75hp shot on just about any production motor out there, you can only run ~3psi on really high comp motors, why? Becaust combustion pressure is nutz, thats why you run high comp pistons with n20 because you can create ASS LOADS of power NA because of the upped pressure.

I still havnt heard a response that is satisfying and im really interested in knowing.

edit: get onling bitch
Nick
97RS

heh, nick...i think you're just making this to difficult.

nitrous does increase cylinder pressures. n20 does not burn, its an oxidizer. meaning it releases mass amounts of oxygen when heated to a certain temperature (565* F) and once heated, this oxygen can be used with extra needed fuel for combustion. just by nature, n20 is 36% oxygen...when air is only about 24%. with more oxygen readily available, the burn rate speeds up meaning it requires less timing for max power. (that might be hard to grasp...less timing, more power...but its fact)

the COLLING effect of nitrous is where the turbo engines really benefit. we all know colder air is denser, and colder air makes more power because of more molecules of oxygen available. a 10 degree drop in intake air temps can add 1% to 1.5% power to an engine. nitrous boils almost as soon as its injected, and this can cause an 80* or so drop in manifold air temperature. thats a fuckin lot. especially for a turbo engine thats already taking advantage of the fact its breathing considerably better than an NA engine at only 14.5psi of air per cubic foot.

the biggest problem with running nitrous is heat though, and the easiest way to cool it is to add fuel...thats the kicker. if the pistons in a 2gnt cant handle the cylinder pressures and heat...they'll sling themselves apart, its as simple as that.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

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Collente I've re-read the whole three pages....what is it your trying to find out?
If you want to know more than this....which is explained far better than I can do click the link at the bottom....it should help you understand alot more.

"With this huge amount of power available I am frequently asked how much power can I have and will I need to do any mods to my engine to handle it all. My answer is that your stock engine will almost certainly handle more power than you the rider / driver can handle, but "What does decide the actual limit that the engine can produce" ? The first thing to keep in mind is that the engine consumes much bigger doses of nitrous per cycle at low rpm than at high rpm, therefore at low rpm where there is little inertia in the engine and the vehicle as a whole it is subjected to much greater forces which it finds difficult to get away from. The consequence of adding too much extra power to the engine at low rpm is that the piston cannot move away from the elevated pressure of combustion fast enough to keep the forces below acceptable limits, and something has to give, either the head gasket will blow, or the piston ring lands will crack, either way if the engine is not stopped immediately the piston will subsequently melt due to the lean out caused by the extra oxygen drawn into the combustion chamber through the leak. If you want to know more than this....which is explained far better than I can do click the link at the bottom....it should help you understand alot more.

"This problem can be solved and the limit can be raised by simply retarding the timing, so that although higher pressures are being generated, they are less than the level which would cause failure because they start later in the piston cycle (i.e. less of the increased pressure occurs in or around tdc when the piston is at its most vulnerable). The same problem can be dealt with by reducing the compression ratio, as is the case with turbos etc., which in some ways would be generally beneficial (e.g. you could run normally on lower octane fuel and put your engine under less stress), plus it brings the added advantage of raising the power potential of the nitrous system before problems are encountered. Another solution is to reduce the amount of Nitrous injected at low rpm and increase it as rpm rises, in the way it can be done when a MAXIMISER is fitted. Put all 3 solutions together and the potential power increases are astronomical! Why astronomical ? Well assuming peak combustion pressures are kept within safe limits by these 3 methods, the power output at the crank is only limited by how much inlet charge can be forced into the engine, and (forgotten by many) how much burnt charge can be forced out of the exhaust system"

http://www.noswizard.com/technical.php

http://www.murderpimp.com





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Ok, This is all great information but still not getting to what im asking. 7psi is ok on stock internals any higher you risk the chance of detonating causing your rings to crack. We all know this. (thats basic info because i dont want to type it all out, so dont comment)

Now why cant I through n20 into the mix? We are creating denser air, its like having a bigger turbo in a sence. Bigger turbo= more cfm per psi. As long as we have the fuel to compinsate, why cant I run a 75 shot? 75shot = cooler air = denser air = more cfm per psi.

Will the rings most likly blow? Why?
Will the piston melt? LMAO, why?

If you spray n20 at idle madhatter you will blow your shit up, this is no news. I understand how the engine works in conjunction with n20. Thats why im saying, with 7psi an amount that the motor can handle, you should be able to run a 75shot just fine.

You all are saying no, based on principals of adding more boost. N20 IS NOT BOOST AND DOESNT WORK THE SAME. But might cause other relavent issues, please help clear this up... sweet discussion imo





Nick
97RS

noooo, not plenum pressure, COMBUSTION CHAMBER PRESSURE!
the pressure in the combustion chamber (tdc, valves closed) as the intake charge is burning, after your 9.6:1 compression (remember pv=nrt?, so much more heat=much more pressure)
now, if its 1.5x as much intake charge as before, its gonna burn hotter (and make moar powar!!11) and have a higher pressure. nitrous does the same thing, cept its increased oxygen content is not thru >atmospheric pressure, but through a chemical reaction (breakdown of 2 N2O into 2 N2 + O2)
what im trying to say is,
your pistons have about a ~100chp window above stock, 7psi boost isnt gonna punch through that, but 7psi+75shot sure as hell will.

2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl
speak softly and spool a big turbo

Thank you sir...

that response fucking makes sence.

I just didnt see how n20 caused higher combustion temps.
But now i do, your guys rock!


Nick
97RS

It seems as though a very basic principle is being overlooked here. Hypothetically speaking, if you have enough intercooling efficiency and/or high enough octane fuel to take detonation out of the picture, and have all the fuel supply you ever need, you cannot run an infinite amount of boost and get an infinite amount of power. Components will brake simply due to lack of strength to handle the combustion chamber pressures. Most of us know that the weakest link on our stock bottom end are our ring lands. They simply can't handle x number of horsepower.

If you take a stock bottom end already being abused by the extra power of 7 compressed lbs of air and spray that with a 75 hp (N/A rating) shot of nitrous, which the cooling effect on the forced compressed air raises even further, say around 125 hp total from the spray your weak cast pistons are gonna brake! You don't have to have extreme temperatures to destroy things.

Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Originally posted by Collente
Ok, This is all great information but still not getting to what im asking. 7psi is ok on stock internals any higher you risk the chance of detonating causing your rings to crack. We all know this. (thats basic info because i dont want to type it all out, so dont comment) Now why cant I through n20 into the mix? We are creating denser air, its like having a bigger turbo in a sence. Bigger turbo= more cfm per psi. As long as we have the fuel to compinsate, why cant I run a 75 shot? 75shot = cooler air = denser air = more cfm per psi. Will the rings most likly blow? Why? Will the piston melt? LMAO, why? If you spray n20 at idle madhatter you will blow your shit up, this is no news. I understand how the engine works in conjunction with n20. Thats why im saying, with 7psi an amount that the motor can handle, you should be able to run a 75shot just fine. You all are saying no, based on principals of adding more boost. N20 IS NOT BOOST AND DOESNT WORK THE SAME. But might cause other relavent issues, please help clear this up... sweet discussion imo Nick 97RS

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
http://www.cafepress.com/mads

Originally posted by Collente

Originally posted by Keith2172 Other topics to address would be the timing issues associated with A NO2 shot compiled with a boosted engine. In order to stave off detonation in a high boost engine you need to run a certain octane as well as a specific amount of timing and the proper amount of fuel. Withoout these three things working together you will most likely encounter problems *BOOM*. With these all set to a specific level, say, 21psi, as soon as you hit the NO2 shot, say, 100shot, you need to find some way to increase these levels, or the previous *BOOM* we discussed will occur. So you have the proper jet in the fuel solenoid, perfect. You spent the money and got a timing retard module or some other way of causeing the timing to retard when you hit the NO2, excellent. But you still have no way of uping the octane for the NO2 hit other than running too high an octane fuel all the time, correction, Propane. Yes I just introduced another thing for you to search and question and research and basically hurt your brain on. Why would one inject propane into a gasoline engine you ask, because it is an excellent form of on-demand octane booster, thats why. Other ways you could do this are to inject alchol, many people on the board are already doing this. Don't be scared by any of this, people have been compiling power-adder upon power-adder for years, just do A LOT of research before you buy anything.

Nope, i dont fucking think so. As long as you have the fuel to compinsate, I dont think you'd need to pull anymore timing. I want someone to give me an educated answer. Why cant I run a 75shot on a stock motor running 7psi. Your answers dont make any sence. I want facts. When upping n20 levels you dont need new rings, you need ss valves cause you'll fry em. All you are doing is cooling down air temps so much to allow for more air causing more power. As long as you have fuel, you should be fine. You not adding psi, just making it 1000x more efficient. Will someone who fucking knows please respond? THANKS! Nick 97RS

Representing the Central Cali chapter of 2GNT!
(I think I'm the only member )

i was reading the instructions online for the zex kit, and it talks about retarding the timing....isnt that bad for a turbo car?

retarding timing is good for a turbocharged car

_____________________________________


http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=1133
*form follows function*

Well i bet the nOOOB could tell the difference between intake pressure and combustion chamber pressure

myspace.com/coastiecobb

Originally posted by Collente

Originally posted by BlackMagic retarding timing is good for a turbocharged car

WTF KIND OF RESPONSE IS THIS... IM IN FUCKING BANME! LAND! It may allow you to run more boost, but fucking A its not a good thing. Nick 97RS

_____________________________________


http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=1133
*form follows function*

Originally posted by BlackMagic

Originally posted by Collente

Originally posted by BlackMagic retarding timing is good for a turbocharged car

WTF KIND OF RESPONSE IS THIS... IM IN FUCKING BANME! LAND! It may allow you to run more boost, but fucking A its not a good thing. Nick 97RS

thats what i was saying...you want the timing retarded a little too run more boost so you don't get detonation, unless you want to run higher octane, don't get your panties in a bunch

I edited to the wiki!

Originally posted by Kirby

Originally posted by BlackMagic

Originally posted by Collente

Originally posted by BlackMagic retarding timing is good for a turbocharged car

WTF KIND OF RESPONSE IS THIS... IM IN FUCKING BANME! LAND! It may allow you to run more boost, but fucking A its not a good thing. Nick 97RS

thats what i was saying...you want the timing retarded a little too run more boost so you don't get detonation, unless you want to run higher octane, don't get your panties in a bunch

Wow nick, take a chill pill bro. Why would retarding timing be a bad thing? It may be bad in an N/A setup in terms of it giving you less power. In a turbo setup running high pressures it is a good thing. Now in a turbo setup running lower pressures like 7psi it is not necessary, but that does not mean it would be a bad thing to do for safteys sake like when you get to 10psi on a stock bottom end. Pulling timing is not detrimental to the engine or anything. And just to make some of the above responces a little clearer: Denser Air = more volume, more volume = more pressure in the compression stroke and more boom in the combustion process. The stock bottom end will only take so big of a boom...

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
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Yea, I was on the verge yesterday and sick of hearing the response of "it just doenst work because it doesnt". I know the difference between mani pressure and combustion pressure, I just didnt see how n20 added that pressure untill now, and it still a little fuzzy.

Retarding timing is a bad thing as it reduces power. BUT sometimes it is needed to make more power, i.e adding more boost. But it is in no way a good thing to do if you can avoid it. I was freakin out and gave an asshole response to an asshole comment.

Some of you bring up the fact of tooo much power will cause the motor to fail, while this is very true and really a no brainer, how much is too much? Even the slightest detonation causes our rings to fuck up as they are the weakest link. But if you introduce a new power adder that wouldnt cause the detonation, you should be fine eh? Assuming that nothing else decideds to take a shit and you dont detonate.

Can someone explain to me why equivalent n20 and boost dont work the same on a high comp motor? Lets say you have a 100shot on a 12:1 motor, but can only run safely 3-4 psi? Is it because that 3-4psi is adding 100hp? Nope. Is it because combustion pressure isnt added to the extent we think it does?

You can run 100shot of n20 on the stock block no problem, but you will most likly fry yer valve. There is more fuel for thought.

Im trying to grasp this... maybe a new post? maybe advanced section.. idono



Nick
97RS

you should ask your butt buddies over at tooners

lmao, jk choad

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

prob get a better response... alfy




Nick
97RS

Since when are pistons rings the weakest part of a 420A? I'm also wondering why you think a 100 shot will "fry" a valve?

god are all your remarks this cynical?

I say they are the weakest link because its been proven.. motor, after motor, after motor, after motor. You have a better observation?

I fried 2 valves running a 50shot and thats why i rebuilt in the first place. Oh, you can also check the main site for this information. As it clearly states that going above 75shot and run the risk of frying valves.



Nick
97RS

Originally posted by Collente
god are all your remarks this cynical? I say they are the weakest link because its been proven.. motor, after motor, after motor, after motor. You have a better observation? I fried 2 valves running a 50shot and thats why i rebuilt in the first place. Oh, you can also check the main site for this information. As it clearly states that going above 75shot and run the risk of frying valves. Nick 97RS

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
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i definately agree the 420a's stock marshmallows are the weak point of the engine. mainly, ring lands.

ive blown enough engines and every single time the ring lands were fucked

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Collente- The PISTONS are the weak point... not the rings. There's not a thing wrong with the stock rings.

A 100-shot of nitrous won't "fry" your valves if it's used and applied properly! You don't know what you're talking about. I sprayed a 100-shot every weekend for a year and a half when I was NA and I used those same valves to put down over 400 horsepower at almost 30 pounds of boost on a S20G. Maybe YOU are the problem with these engine.

Also, don't believe everything you read "on the main site".

I am the fucking problem....

I hardly ever believe anything I hear, thats why i was waiting for an educated response from someone like yourself, but you just like to harass me instead... lol

but i get your point... just like you making over 400whp right?



Nick
97RS

good thing u helped him with the turbo gasket nick

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

ok, heres an example of what happens when too much power is being put thru something:

stock rods fail around 13psi (from what ive read), now that isnt from detonation, they just cant withstand the power anymore (because they are #2 after the stock piston ringlands for weakness)

2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl
speak softly and spool a big turbo

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

Talk shit!!

Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician

watching dougie getting all defensive like a little girl is getting to be very entertaining!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Listening to a guy get all pissed off and tell others they're idiots when they try to help educate him is entertaining.

Representing the Central Cali chapter of 2GNT!
(I think I'm the only member )

edit: nm

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

You are all retarded.