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Top 2GNT Technical Turbo/Nitrous Tech topic #72384
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Subject: "best tuning methods" Previous topic | Next topic
nosdeclipseJun-08-04 05:18 PM
Member since Dec 17th 2002
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#72384, "best tuning methods"




          

after my rebuild i def. want to get it tuned pretty decently because A) i don't want it to blow up again B) i want to get all the power i can out of all the money i just spent. i know the best way is to dyno or get a wide band (too much $$ right now), but seeing as the closest one is pretty far away this really isn't an option. i bought a datalogger which i hope will help me a little bit and i should be able to tune the fuel pretty good with the sfmu and safc. so how should i go about doing it? logging on a graph rpm vs o2 voltage or what? also, how would a wideband be hooked up to a datalogger, can i just get the sensor and log it through there or do i have to buy the whole setup. someone please put some opinions.


98 eclipse gs
star stage 2 w/ bb, 8.6:1 je pistons, eagle rods, web turbo grind cams, udp, clutchmasters aluminum flywheel, clutchmasters stage 3 clutch, hks aic 3, 8 injector setup, phantom grip lsd, datalogger

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: best tuning methods, TeamXtremeRS, Jun-08-04 05:37 PM, #1
RE: best tuning methods, Steve, Jun-08-04 06:35 PM, #2
      RE: best tuning methods, jsupetran, Jun-09-04 04:01 AM, #3
           RE: best tuning methods, Teametx, Jun-09-04 05:53 AM, #4
                RE: best tuning methods, nosdeclipse, Jun-09-04 12:39 PM, #5
                     RE: best tuning methods, Steve, Jun-09-04 12:54 PM, #6
                     RE: best tuning methods, jsupetran, Jun-09-04 01:15 PM, #7
                          RE: best tuning methods, DSMeclipseGS, Jun-09-04 07:29 PM, #8
                               RE: best tuning methods, grain, Jun-10-04 11:43 AM, #9
                                    RE: best tuning methods, trbolips, Jun-10-04 01:07 PM, #10
                                         RE: best tuning methods, Geelo, Jun-10-04 05:18 PM, #11
                                              RE: best tuning methods, TeamJasonESi_T, Jun-11-04 03:51 AM, #12
                                                   RE: best tuning methods, Teamdougie2, Jun-11-04 05:03 AM, #13
                                                        RE: best tuning methods, TeamJasonESi_T, Jun-11-04 06:35 AM, #14
                                                             RE: best tuning methods, 97whitESi, Jun-11-04 07:30 AM, #15

TeamXtremeRSJun-08-04 05:37 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#72386, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 0


          

These are things you WANT to know when running higher boost and wanting to make good power.

Wideband 02 AFR
EGT's
Ignition timing advance
Intake temperatures

If you dont have the tools to monitor any or all of these, its in my best opinion to either save up for them, or dont run high boost until you do. Tuning off of the stock o2 sensor is just too inaccurate. Going from only several hundreths of a volt(eg .92-94)could mean running a 12:1 AFR, ro a a 13:1 AFR..its just not accurate enough in the rich range to give you a reading you can be confident on. EGT tuning can be tricky also. There are many other vaiables that can cause a high EGT other than running to lean..

Your best bet is to get on a dyno with a wideband, or fork over the cash for an incar wideband. Also, a pocketlogger or a laptop datalogger is a must have item also. After using my AEM wideband, i dont know how i ever tuned without it..I just used to tune to EGT pretty much, but that was never very accurate. If you want to be in the 13+ psi club, then get the mentioned tools to tune with, or do your tuning on a dyno. Don't forget to use your other "free" tools either, you EARS. Listening for the motor detonaing or misfiring, ect..sometimes can be the best tool ever Although you need to know what they sound like at the same time, for it to be of any use.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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SteveJun-08-04 06:35 PM
Member since Sep 15th 2003
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#72391, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 1




          

Dude this isnt even my post but you allways give awesome info and never the "search" answer.

Steve-o
Top secret.

Originally posted by FlyinEsi
I guess I'll just have to live with a 500+ hp AWD 4-banger.

  

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jsupetranJun-09-04 04:01 AM
Member since May 04th 2002
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#72398, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 2
Jun-09-04 04:02 AM by jsupetran



          

Originally posted by Steve
Dude this isnt even my post but you allways give awesome info and never the "search" answer.




The 13 psi is definetly the "elite." Take even more money to run that much... that's why I like my 5 psi.


-------jezreel
1998 GS with hrc stage 2, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, haydans tranny cooler, costum dp, dr. uber groundwires, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler
Boostin since Aug 03.

nothing like driving with the windows down and the music low: i love hearing the turbo spool, swwwhhhttt!!!!
thanks for www.kaptainmyke.com for the sig hosting

  

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TeametxJun-09-04 05:53 AM
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#72400, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 3
Jun-09-04 05:56 AM by etx



          

Originally posted by jsupetran
Originally posted by Steve Dude this isnt even my post but you allways give awesome info and never the "search" answer.
The 13 psi is definetly the "elite." Take even more money to run that much... that's why I like my 5 psi.


LOL! If 13 psi is elite what is 22 psi? God-Like?

I tuned my EIC strictly to my EGT's. I'm thinking about pulling the wideband out of my Z and throwing it into the eclipse for some tuning. I'll probably wait and do that once I get a larger trim turbo. This 16g isn't cutting it.

So yeah you can tune to EGT's, I do it. But like Matt said, a wb o2 is always going to be better. And if you have a crappy EGT probe your EGT gauge is going to be useless anyways. If you have an autometer probe get rid of it and pickup one of those good ones from Team RIP for $45. It's well worth it. Or get the WB for $250 from Zetronics. I am using it in the Z, it works great. I only paid $250 because I did not get the screen for it, I ran the analog output to my profec e-01 and have it logging to my PC in the Z. $250 get you the controller, Bosch WB sensor, pc software, and all the cables you need. Very nice unit, I am happy with it so far.

Oh yeah. No way in hell would I ever run 12+ psi with a rising rate FPR. Time for the 8 Injector setup my friend!

____________________________________________________
four nails four corners four riders and four horses

  

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nosdeclipseJun-09-04 12:39 PM
Member since Dec 17th 2002
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#72429, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 4




          

i usually don't disagree with most of you guys, but on the comment on not using the rising rate regulator. i see way too many people using it on high boost applications with no problems. i believe it is a matter of preference and with the proper tuning should not be an issue. i don't plan on going to the 8 injector setup and don't think i ever will. like i said, i think it is a matter of preference.


98 eclipse gs
star stage 2 w/ bb, 8.6:1 je pistons, eagle rods, web turbo grind cams, udp, clutchmasters aluminum flywheel, clutchmasters stage 3 clutch, hks aic 3, 8 injector setup, phantom grip lsd, datalogger

  

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SteveJun-09-04 12:54 PM
Member since Sep 15th 2003
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#72432, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 5




          

8-injector setup for driveablility/tuning/lots of spare time.

sfmu. all out powa.....poopier gas mileage.

Thats what I've gatherd from reading.

Steve-o
Top secret.

Originally posted by FlyinEsi
I guess I'll just have to live with a 500+ hp AWD 4-banger.

  

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jsupetranJun-09-04 01:15 PM
Member since May 04th 2002
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#72434, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 5




          

Originally posted by nosdeclipse
i usually don't disagree with most of you guys, but on the comment on not using the rising rate regulator. i see way too many people using it on high boost applications with no problems. i believe it is a matter of preference and with the proper tuning should not be an issue. i don't plan on going to the 8 injector setup and don't think i ever will. like i said, i think it is a matter of preference.


Ummm no.

Rising fuel pressure reg are very much for low boost aps. It is a, "good solution" in terms having no computer controlling fuel with boost, It just rises, you can't adjust it per rpm, so the tuning issues are LIMITED. It's great for low boost 11 or less, but the higher the boost, then the more need their is to have a more sohisticated fuel system.

-------jezreel
1998 GS with hrc stage 2, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, haydans tranny cooler, costum dp, dr. uber groundwires, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler
Boostin since Aug 03.

nothing like driving with the windows down and the music low: i love hearing the turbo spool, swwwhhhttt!!!!
thanks for www.kaptainmyke.com for the sig hosting

  

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DSMeclipseGSJun-09-04 07:29 PM
Member since Jan 21st 2002
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#72462, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Originally posted by jsupetran
Originally posted by nosdeclipse i usually don't disagree with most of you guys, but on the comment on not using the rising rate regulator. i see way too many people using it on high boost applications with no problems. i believe it is a matter of preference and with the proper tuning should not be an issue. i don't plan on going to the 8 injector setup and don't think i ever will. like i said, i think it is a matter of preference.
Ummm no. Rising fuel pressure reg are very much for low boost aps. It is a, "good solution" in terms having no computer controlling fuel with boost, It just rises, you can't adjust it per rpm, so the tuning issues are LIMITED. It's great for low boost 11 or less, but the higher the boost, then the more need their is to have a more sohisticated fuel system. -------jezreel 1998 GS with hrc stage 2, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, haydans tranny cooler, costum dp, dr. uber groundwires, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler Boostin since Aug 03. nothing like driving with the windows down and the music low: i love hearing the turbo spool, swwwhhhttt!!!! thanks for www.kaptainmyke.com for the sig hosting



What about the sfmu along with a safc while datalogging?


"Who needs a 4G63? I'd rather walk the competition than my crank..."

- Bill Hahn.... 420a GOD

  

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grainJun-10-04 11:43 AM
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#72487, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 8


          

lol, people. your thinking wrong. why spend like 2k on an engine. 3k+ on turbo. and not spend like 5-6 on a nice fuel system controller? i bought my megasquirt with all components for like 250. and a dfi nowadays you can get a gen 6 on ebay for like 5-600. why mess with a rising rate?

  

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trbolipsJun-10-04 01:07 PM
Member since Jun 10th 2004
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#72490, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 9


          

i'm running an FMU 8:1 with 310's
and fear that i am not getting enough fuel- so i don't boost.
the goal right now is 12psi...though i'm sure i'll eventually want 15
was thinking of upgrading to an SFMU
and now you mention this MegaSquirt.
and seeing as the SFMU goes for something like $280, maybe spending a little more
isn't a bad idea- esp. if i can upgrade the injectors and still tune.

have never worked with anything software based
and i have a mac...though i guess i could buy an old piece o' crap laptop...
but how difficult is it to work with?
is it very easy to screw up?
...wait- you have to assemble it yourself!
that's crazy!
*&%$ i just got out of school and i don't wanna go to ITT Tech!

help!


johnny class
jj948@bard.edu

  

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GeeloJun-10-04 05:18 PM
Member since Apr 01st 2004
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#72497, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 10


          

When you run 8 injectors, are you also running a rising rate reg??

98 GS Eclipse

  

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TeamJasonESi_TJun-11-04 03:51 AM
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#72511, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 11
Jun-11-04 04:02 AM by JasonESi_T

          

Originally posted by Geelo
When you run 8 injectors, are you also running a rising rate reg??


Yes, technically. But the FPR the 8-injector folks use only rises the rate of fuel pressure relative to the rate of boost similar to a stock turbo car, i.e. 1:1. Most associate the "RRFPR" to FPR's which raise the rate of fuel pressure a great deal more, anywhere from 2:1 to 12:1.

In my own mind, RRFPR's are the cheapest and quickest way to turn a n/a fuel setup to a turbo fuel setup. However, as noted above, any attempt to use this setup for high boost applications will result in lean conditions somewhere in the power band, if you don't accomodate by making it rich everywhere. The 420a in particular has its spots where more fuel is necessary demanded, whereas a RRFPR is completely linear and exponentialy in the manner it provides fuel. It just does not compensate at all for rises and dips in a torque curve.

In addition, I always found there seems to be a slight delay with the fuel enrichment after I hammered the throttle into boost. This sensation always bothered me, and was the main reason I sought out a "better" fuel system.

_____________________________________
Jason ESi-T

04' BMW 325Ci
91' Nissan 240SX
98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)

  

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Teamdougie2Jun-11-04 05:03 AM
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#72514, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 12
Jun-11-04 05:05 AM by dougie2



          

Originally posted by JasonESi_T
Originally posted by GeeloIn addition, I always found there seems to be a slight delay with the fuel enrichment after I hammered the throttle into boost. This sensation always bothered me, and was the main reason I sought out a "better" fuel system.


The stock ECU is the cause of the "delay" when you get on the gas. There's no way around it unless you piggy-back the ECU or use a stand-alone.

It's fairly simple to calibrate a RRFPR to run upwards of 22 psi. I'm not sure where some of you guys are getting your info about 13psi being the max to run using a RRFPR, but that's just not true. If all you're saying is that it's difficult to get a perfect a/f ratio throughout the entire power band, that's correct... but it'll be difficult using ANY fuel controller.



Doug

Xtreme Performance Services

Race Engines Transmissions Turbo Systems EFI & Tuning Fabrication Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  

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TeamJasonESi_TJun-11-04 06:35 AM
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#72517, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Originally posted by dougie2
If all you're saying is that it's difficult to get a perfect a/f ratio throughout the entire power band, that's correct... but it'll be difficult using ANY fuel controller.


That is my point. "Difficult" with a fuel controller (i.e. standalone, piggyback...etc.). Impossible with a RRFPR.

_____________________________________
Jason ESi-T

04' BMW 325Ci
91' Nissan 240SX
98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)

  

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97whitESiJun-11-04 07:30 AM
Member since Mar 17th 2004
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#72518, "RE: best tuning methods"
In response to Reply # 14


          

along w/ the other things suggested,
dont forget to read your plugs!
when i blew hte HG on my old LeBaron Turbo, i took out the plugs when i was takin the head off and figured out which cylinder detonated
(it was #3)

2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl
speak softly and spool a big turbo

  

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