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Subject: "How many blown engines here? Statistics time!" Previous topic | Next topic
RS_GuyMay-17-01 12:50 PM
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#5199, "How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"




          

LAST EDITED ON 17-May-01 AT 05:54 PM (PST)

OK... this has reached a ridiculous point. People are blowing engines up left and right. My question is HOW MANY have?

It is a very sad (and quite discouraging) topic to discuss, but someone has to do it...

Oh, and the Turbo Kit doesn't matter... in case no one has figured it out yet, its out POS stock bearings, rings and pistons. I have personally seen these fail on STOCK motors...
Apart from this, the crazy timing is a great factor. And also don't forget that from turbo kit to turbo kit (of the same make) not a *single* one is identically installed to the next, or *idnetically* tuned to the next, or run in *identically* the same temperatures....

BTW there IS a block design difference between years (95-96 & 97-99)..

Here's what I want to know (cut and paste and fill in):

*Car BRAND (Talon/Eclipse/Avenger)..... Eclipse
*Model Year ... 95 Early Fuel System
*Total Mileage at time of incident ..... 94,000
*Total Mileage Turboed ...... 3000
*PSI on Turbo ..... 10psi
*Fuel System Setup ..... HRC Fuel Pressure Riser w/ Holley High Pressure Fuel Pump
*Internals.... Bone stock (and as far as I know) all original.
*Any timing tuning? .... No
*What went wrong ..... Blown Rings - excessive blow-by, blew camshaft seals

I DO NOT want to know which turbo kit. We will only start a silly pointless little war...

Thanks, and I hope you guys help me find the problem!

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, TeamStan2gnt, May-17-01 01:06 PM, #1
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, RS_Guy, May-17-01 01:20 PM, #2
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, 99GSBBTurbo, May-17-01 02:29 PM, #3
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, E_ME_2, May-17-01 03:13 PM, #4
      RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, sleepereclipse, May-17-01 03:47 PM, #5
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, MWC, May-18-01 02:20 AM, #6
RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!, RAIZIN, May-18-01 06:16 AM, #7
Dayum!, RS_Guy, May-18-01 09:55 AM, #8
RE: Dayum!, Jason 95 GS Turbo, May-19-01 02:45 AM, #9
      RE: Dayum!, MWC, May-19-01 03:05 AM, #10
           RE: Dayum!, RS_Guy, May-19-01 11:05 AM, #11
                RE: Dayum!, RAIZIN, May-19-01 12:04 PM, #12
                     RE: Dayum!, RAIZIN, May-19-01 12:11 PM, #13
                     RE: Dayum!, RS_Guy, May-19-01 12:19 PM, #14
                          RE: Dayum!, RAIZIN, May-19-01 12:54 PM, #15
                     RE: Dayum!, Jason 95 GS Turbo, May-19-01 05:58 PM, #16
                          RE: Dayum!, cyan, May-19-01 06:29 PM, #17
                               RE: Dayum!, rsXboy99, May-20-01 06:24 AM, #18
                                    timing retard, 95ESi, May-20-01 04:55 PM, #19
                                         RE: timing retard, sleepereclipse, May-21-01 12:13 PM, #20
                                         RE: timing retard, DAVE_FL (Guest), May-21-01 02:15 PM, #21
                                              RE: timing retard, Jason 95 GS Turbo, May-21-01 04:40 PM, #22

TeamStan2gntMay-17-01 01:06 PM
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#5200, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 0




          

Do I hear an echo in here?

>BTW there IS a block design
>difference between years (95-96 &
>97-99)..
What would those changes be and are they significant? Obviously the measurements haven't changed neither has the cooling passages since any yr head gasket and internals will work.

>Here's what I want to know
>(cut and paste and fill
>in):
>
>*Car BRAND (Talon/Eclipse/Avenger)..... Talon

>*Model Year ... 95 Early Fuel
>System

>*Total Mileage at time of incident ..... Dont know used engine 109K on the car. Not really an incident it took about a month before it became undriveable

>*Total Mileage Turboed ......none. maybe a total of 40lbs of nitrous spread across a yr period.

>*PSI on Turbo .....none at the time. seldom 70 shot dry

>*Fuel System Setup ..... NOS regulator/stock

>*Internals.... Bone stock
>
>*Any timing tuning? .... No

>*What went wrong .....A barely noticeable tick that was diagnosed to be the early stages of a bearing gone bad. A month later the tick turned into a knock which turned into what sounded like 50 nuts and bolts were thrown into the crankcase at which point I stopped driving it.

Oh and I never mentioned it but Gtuned.com looks like its gonna be one of the best personal sites so far. Love the AFC tuning.



Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user




:farfrommugen:
Yes I still own a 2gnt.
Damn right I've been here longer than U
klassic_liven@yahoo.com

  

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RS_GuyMay-17-01 01:20 PM
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#5201, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 1




          

Thanks Always nice to hear nice comments!

As for the block changes... As far as I know, the crank bearing from a 95-96 did not fit a 98 420A motor. So I walked back into MOPAR and sure enough there were different part numbers to order! Unfortunately, size-wise I couldn't compare the bearing packages, but the 97-99 ones looked pretty much the same "design-wise". However they cost about $30 more that the 95-96 ones...

The guy working the parts at my local Chrysler confirmed that there was a design change between 95-96 & and 97-99 for the Crankshaft bearing only.. the rod bearings still had the same part numbers.

I actually stubled across this random fact because my car is slowly becoming a little bastard child, since it's an early '95, and I am sticking in it a '98 420A out of an automatic Avenger (that was STOCK and had spun a rod bearing).

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

  

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99GSBBTurboMay-17-01 02:29 PM
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#5202, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 0




          

*Car BRAND ..... Eclipse
*Model Year ... 99 GS
*Total Mileage at time of incident ..... 23,000
*Total Mileage Turboed ......about 4,000
*PSI on Turbo ..... 10psi, only about 3 or 4 times
*Fuel System Setup ..... Walbro Intank Fuel Pump
*Internals.... Bone stock
*Any timing tuning? .... No
*What went wrong ..... I have no idea yet... I still have to bring it in. I'm waiting to get my Stock Headers and stock fuel pump from Wyatt cause I left them at his house when we installed it:P

But I had someone just look and listen to it and he said it sounds like it's one of the pistons...3 or 4. I'll let you know as soon as I bring it in.

Wish me luck.




Ball Bearing Star Stage II
"Power is nothing without control"


I use to have a White 99 GS Sport with a Star Stage II Ball Bearing T3/T4 turbo...it was fun untill....well those who remember me know Oh Ya...this is what I have now... a 99' GSX...

  

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E_ME_2May-17-01 03:13 PM
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#5203, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 3


          

1996 RS here with, a 2000 model 420a block

miles on new block 20000
miles with turbo 10000
boost during engine death 7psi
internals Stock
HRC stage 2 fuel system

I had a loose fuel hose, so I was loosing fuel pressure during boost...I had no EGT or A/F guage...(running blind like a fool)


  

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sleepereclipseMay-17-01 03:47 PM
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#5204, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 4


          

*Car BRAND ..... Eclipse
*Model Year ... 98 GS
*Total Mileage at time of incident ..... 73,000
*Total Mileage Turboed ......about 2,000
*PSI on Turbo ..... 6-7psi
*Fuel System Setup ..... Walbro Intank Fuel Pump
*Internals.... Bone stock
*Any timing tuning? .... No
*What went wrong ..... being taken apart now

  

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MWCMay-18-01 02:20 AM
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#5205, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>
>
>*Car BRAND (Talon/Eclipse/Avenger)..... Eclipse
>*Model Year ... 95 Early Fuel
>System
>*Total Mileage at time of incident
>..... 104,000
>*Total Mileage Turboed ...... 30 miles (yes 30)
>*PSI on Turbo ..... 5psi, but spiked turbo once.
>*Fuel System Setup ..... Intank Walbro RC 440's and S-AFC
>Pressure Riser >Pressure Fuel Pump
>*Internals.... Bone stock (and as far
>as I know) all original.
>
>*Any timing tuning? .... MSD-DIS@
>*What went wrong ..... crushed and craked #2 landing ring causeing excessive blow-by>




  

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RAIZINMay-18-01 06:16 AM
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#5206, "RE: How many blown engines here? Statistics time!"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Blah.. I lost track.. all I know is that I blew my engine a total of three times..

1. Cracked my exhaust cam in half (don't ask me how)

2. Cracked three stock pistons at 14psi

3. blew rings out and one hairline crack on #3 JE piston

And you know what will really blow you away? I bought my car in Oct. of '94 and I have 40,000 miles on it.

TAKE THAT!!!!

  

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RS_GuyMay-18-01 09:55 AM
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#5207, "Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 0




          

Some crazy stuff going on here... Raizin seems to be the leader of the pack right now with blowing up 420As...

However, I am starting to see a funny trend with piston rings (gee... like we haven't already noticed!). It's also mostly (All except Raizin) with stock internals...

I'm starting to think that pistons, rings and rods should become part of the Stage II package. What's funny though is that I still haven't heard of anyone breaking a rod.... Looks like the rings/pistons always go first.

On a serisous note, maybe the engines CAN take 10+psi & 300+HP, but for sure they are not forgiving to tuning errors... One mistake and bam!

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

  

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Jason 95 GS TurboMay-19-01 02:45 AM
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#5208, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 8


          

i don't think there is anything wrong with the pistons rings and rods for a stage II kit. Yes, they might be cheap, and wear out over time with the extra abuse, but all of these blown motors are caused by one thing. DETONATION!. well, except maybe for raizin cracked cam? WTF is up with that? anyway. keep enough fuel, these motors should be fine. even ask bill. His website praises these motors for their durability.


jason
95 GS Turbo

  

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MWCMay-19-01 03:05 AM
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#5209, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Not mine! fuel was not an issue.








  

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RS_GuyMay-19-01 11:05 AM
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#5210, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 10




          

LAST EDITED ON 19-May-01 AT 04:08 PM (PST)

First lemme get the record straight! I LOVE the 420A. I also have great faith that it is Super durable. However, we have a definite problem here, and I want to help others by finding out the problem and PREVENTING it!

If you still, doubt my loyalty to our cars, then check out some of the gruesome insults towards "2gnts" that I defended on the Talon Digest Archives.

You might also wanna check out (written by me):
http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~elkhoury/gtuned/pages/why_420a.html

Oh, and I also organized and requested for the 2GNT category last year for the shootout...

Unfortunately though, our engines come with some internals that really can't handle the added stress at all...

I definitely agree that detonation is probably the problem. But the thing is our sengine in STOCK form can only handle a detonation "few" times.. *few* being as little as once??????

I just want to get something clear.. That by "Detonation" you mean when the A/F mixture self ignites (due to heat)? Or when the the spark sets off the mixture at the wrong time?

Several people who have been checking out the timing on our engines have noticed the crazy ignition advance at high rpms.

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

  

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RAIZINMay-19-01 12:04 PM
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#5211, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 11


          

The fuck is up with me cracking a cam is because when I installed my regrinds the first time I put one of the bearing caps on backwards. That was back in '95 and back then is when I bought a brand new head and had it ported out along with all the top end works such as ported/port matched intake plenum and so on and so on. So now you know.

I still can't understand why you guys don't understand what detonation is. With our engines.. you can never really tell just by listening to it if it's detonating or not. Detonation is the same thing as pinging or knocking. With turbo.. you're detonating all the time.. especially at top end rpm's, and yes it's because of the stock timing advance. Wyatt would have never even known he was detonating if he didn't see the loss in power and sudden rise in his EGT at high rpm if he didn't take it to the dyno. Little do most of you guys know that you ARE detonating.. it's just a matter of time before your stock internals give way. The JE's are more succeptable to detonation.. which is why they are recommended. They come with a lower compression to minimize but not eliminate detonation. Intercooling also reduces but not eliminates detonation. Hot/dense air causes detonation, detonation causes heat, and heat cracks and melts shit. When you think about detonation.. you seem to be under the impression that it's something like a single boom from a bomb. It's more like a period of time when your combustion is booming like a bomb due to pre-ignition. Remember that on the simpsons when Homer first introduced Barney to alchohol in college? The first drink made is face wrinkle up.. and with more drinks he gradually became this fat, janky broken down wilderbeast of a character. This is what is happening to your stock internals when you have improper tuning such as excessively advanced timing, hot intake charge, too big of a gap in your spark plugs, low octane fuel usage, lean air fuel mixture etc etc. And don't think if you do have the upgraded internals you won't be prone to the same death of an engine by the same means. The billet rods will help keep the engine together .. but the all important turbo application pistons will only allow room for error for a longer period of time versus stock mahle pistons. All these components and variables will differ according to application such as nitrous, high compression, and turbocharging.. but they all have similar precautions that entail the minimization but not entire elimination of detonation. I have yet to see a high performance car that does not ever detonate. So you stage one turbo owners with stock bottom ends.. although the turbo gives your car more spunk through everyday driving.. in my personal opinion.. stage one is not meant for racing.. not just yet. So upgrade your sheeit!!!!! I don't want to see this list get longer and longer. I can afford to blow my shit up because I'm backed by my sponsors.

Check out my crew at www.935draggers.com

  

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RAIZINMay-19-01 12:11 PM
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#5212, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Forgot to mention to you guys that are fairly new to this board.. I've been boosting 10-14 psi on stock internals for just barely over a year before I had to upgrade my bottom end. I had the proper tuning on my stage II with 450cc (not 440cc) custom made injectors along with the MSD-DIS2 boost retard option. I had the old style AFC at first and that was doing the a/f tuning and ALL the tuning was done ON THE DYNO with fine adjustments made to my AEM cam gears. This is a year on stock internals ladies and gentlmen and I'm sure all the old timers on this board remember that. This was done BEFORE I started abusing the holy fuck out of my car with race after race after race. Sometimes I keep quiet on this board because I like to read the testimony of people that thrive on the ignorance of others for praise in false knowledge. But lately it's been getting to me.. so I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut anymore.

  

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RS_GuyMay-19-01 12:19 PM
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#5213, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 13




          

Cool dude, we need all the experience we can get!

BTW I have known about 935Draggers for longer than I have modified my first car.. an ahem.. Honda ..

May I just add that "Water Injection" also helps prevent detonation. It also helps to mix the water with some alcohol (pure ethanol).

Now for some crazy wild stuff.. So as I take it I'm pretty much screwed with my 9.5:1 JE Pistons? Oh well, I'll keep ya all up to date... BTW I plan to go with a complete Engine Management System to take car of my ignition issues along with the fuel stuff...
Any reccomendations Raizin?

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

  

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RAIZINMay-19-01 12:54 PM
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#5214, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 14


          

LAST EDITED ON 19-May-01 AT 05:55 PM (PST)

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to use your 9.5:1 pistons. You just won't be able to boost as much as lower compression applications without, once again, the proper tuning and precautions.

  

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Jason 95 GS TurboMay-19-01 05:58 PM
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#5215, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 12


          

i personally can say that i did not mean to offend you when i said what the fuck is up with you cracking a cam. I did not know it was because of you putting a bearing cap on backwards. I just found it odd that a cam cracked. It's not really a common problem on our cars. And as far as everything else you say, i agree with you. My point though is that everyone on this damn board blames our shitty stock internals as being the root of them blowing up their motors. That they have to have a built bottom end to have a turbo kit. Everyone says ohh, if you are going turbo, better go get your rods and pistons now. I feel there is no need for it. Get yourself a fuel system that is more reliable than a mechanical boost dependent riser, and injectors that are WAY too small for a turbo application, and get yourself some way of tuning out the high RPM advance. If i wasn't going with my standalone, i would have a crane ignition on my car already.


Do i think that having this turbo kit on my car is not going to destroy my motor however? NOPE. I know that pushing that kind of power out of a motor that wasn't really designed for it is not a good idea. But will i blow up my motor the way that most of these have blown up? I sure hope not. If i push my motor to higher boost levels, i make sure i do something to make up for it, such as race gas, the fight off the detonation. But come on. Most of these people have blown their motor up after 3-4000 miles. And as much as everyone hates to admit they fucked up, there is generally a reason behind it. The person i bought my turbo kit off of was one of the first people to have the star kits, him and wyatt got theirs about the same time. Way back then. He blew up his motor. WHy? human error. He played with the wastegate to get more boost, and watched his boost creep to 14 lbs. at redline. Stock injectors, FMU under the back seat, no A/F guage, pretty much every thing you don't want to do. It cost him alot, and never had the car running right. He never would admit to the fact that it was human error that caused his motor to blow.

Now am i saying that all of these problems are human error related? NO. MWC, if you had your bigger injectors in already, you ran high boost on stock internals, you probably took it too it's limit. ALthough cracked ring lands still sounds like detonation to me. I think with proper fuel, our connecting rods would be the first to go with high HP levels.

My point being though, just cus we have 9.5:1 compression, and cast pistons, does not make excuses for a blown motor. These can work just fine for a turbo. 4g63's have cast pistons. Chrysler 2.2 turbo's have cast pistons. Most production turbo cars have cast pistons. Forged are too damn expensive for a production car. What is the difference with these cars? they have an ECU that reads boost!!! We don't. We bypass our ECU with mechanical means to compensate for boost.

So, what is the honest answer for this? i can't really tell you. Go with a standalone ECU? God, i am trying that route, and i must say, it is a pain in the ass. Keep what you have and do some more tuning? Probably a good idea. But no fun when you want to go past 10 PSI. Build your bottom end? Not worth it unless you already blew it up, or it needs done anyway. Sell your car and buy a 1st gen AWD? Umm..yeah, i wish i could do this, but god, they don't look anywhere near as good. Sell your car and buy a honda? HEHEHEHEHHEE...i won't even comment. All i can say, is that at least they have options we don't have.



Ohh well, i ramble and ramble here. Feel free to flame me with any and everything i say that you don't agree with.

jason
95 GS Turbo

  

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cyanMay-19-01 06:29 PM
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#5216, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 16




          

so what exactly is the solution to the top end ignition advance? just buying a crane or MSD ignition? what else would need to be purchased to do this? and would it have to be run on a dyno to get the ignition set correctly or is there some way to do it according to pre-listed numbers?

http://www.geocities.com/blue2gnt



1995 Eclipse GS - HRC Stage 2 - Retired.
2004 350z Enthusiast / 2008 Nissan Versa SL

  

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rsXboy99May-20-01 06:24 AM
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#5217, "RE: Dayum!"
In response to Reply # 17




          

99 eclipse rs
20000 miles at the time
1000 turbo miles
was racing a 2000 cobra on 10psi(what it was set at for 1000 miles) at 140mph when i blew it
leaned out

  

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95ESiMay-20-01 04:55 PM
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#5218, "timing retard"
In response to Reply # 18


          

What do we need for timing retard????

I wanna prolong my engine..

___________________________
l e o n
1995 Eagle Talon ESi-T
Star Stage 2
Boost is GOOOOOOOD!

  

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sleepereclipseMay-21-01 12:13 PM
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#5219, "RE: timing retard"
In response to Reply # 19


          

dis-2

  

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DAVE_FL (Guest)May-21-01 02:15 PM

  
#5220, "RE: timing retard"
In response to Reply # 19


          

What you need is money!!! Anything is possible with a good supply of cash.

DAVE_FL
97GS
AEM CAI
AFX PULLEY
AFX solid motor mount
Magnaflow exhaust
Sparkco 9mm wires
Eibach Pro Kit
tokico shocks
Altezzas
A Badass sound system
Indiglows,neons,and all that good stuff...hehe
BOOSTING SOON!!!!!


  

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Jason 95 GS TurboMay-21-01 04:40 PM
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#5221, "RE: timing retard"
In response to Reply # 21


          

This is what i was talking about with timing retard. MSD makes almost the exact same setup. If i am not mistaken, Hahn runs the MSD version of this exact same thing. It uses the HI-6DI2 for the ignition amplifier, then plug in the map sensor and controll knob for it, and you can retard your timing under boost, and still keep it at it's full stock advance under normal driving. Pretty nifty ain't it? MSD should have the same setup. Look through their catalogs. So we got too much advance at high RPMs? There is the answer to your problems.


jason
95 GS Turbo

  

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