#31412, "I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too"
I wish I knew why no one gets this for their car? It seems to be great. I found this and cut and pasted it.....If you want VERY good info about detonation and preignition click on the website at the bottom and go to the tech section. This system seems perfect for me!!! I am going to e-mail them and ask them a few questions.
J&S While MSD has taken the pro-active approach to ignition control in the way of their BTM units, J&S’s basic controller covers the reactive side of the equation. The J&S Safegaurd uses a knock sensor (standard on most late model ECU equipped cars) to “listen” for detonation, and if it senses any, retards the timing in an effort to prevent engine damage. The J&S units are very fast and sophisticated, and can even retard timing on a per cylinder basis if you so choose. J&S Safegaurds, for their modest asking price of $450-500 dollars, should be considered the best insurance policy for your engine money can buy, and for a small extra outlay in cash, will show you if and when they are pulling out timing. In essence, a J&S unit is a tuning tool and insurance policy all-in-one, not a bad investment for less than the cost of pistons alone. The new kid on the block from J&S is their Ultra Safegaurd, combining boost dependent ignition retard with the welcome insurance the standard Safegaurd supplies. Although these units don’t offer the multiple spark discharge of a 6BTM, in my opinion they offer the absolute best setup when it comes to a single purchase system for forced induction motors. You can essentially tune the J&S with itself; upon seeing that the unit is pulling out timing under boost, you can alter the retard amount to tune out detonation. And with their dual monitor gauge, you can even see the a/f ratio the engine is running at the time of detonation, allowing you to most accurately pinpoint the cause of the problem. What other product costing less than $600 can you make that claim with? Check http://safeguard.20m.com/ for more details.
#31413, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 0
I'm just a little confused still. To my understanding, the module looks for knock and retards timing, which is great, because this is something the 4G63 ecu does, and ours don't. In terms of timing control, it seems to be an excellent setup to have, but what about its function as an ignition? Does it provide the high spark needed in boosted engines, such as the Crane or MSD? I may have missed that part. I'm going to reread their description agai
___________ Kon C
"Sometimes, a man has to do what a man has to do."
#31414, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 0
Ya know, I was gonna post a thread just like this after reading about that thing. You beat me to it I agree with you completely Dave and I think its a tool that is waaaaaay under looked here.
Matt 1995 Eclipse GS 2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi
1998 Eclipse GSX 2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...
#31415, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 2
Wow, I carefully re-read their product description, and this thing rocks! It seems to be a very advanced, well engineered, ignition module. It's nice to have the boost referenced timing retard feature with the Crane ignition, but that's just "blindly" retarding timing. That SafeGuard actually monitors "knock" and retards timing proportional to the knock counts it "sees." I'm gonna have to start saving for thi
___________ Kon C
"Sometimes, a man has to do what a man has to do."
#31416, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 3
It looks pretty nice. I'm curious how it "measures" knock. It doesn't really go into detail about how to tell it "how" to listen for knock or sensativity of it. I'd love to know how that part actually works (whether it comes with its own knock sensor). An online manual would be nice just to see what is involved in installation. The only limitation that I see with this is that it looks to only be for forced induction applications. I don't think you can advance timing past stock (not that you would for forced indcution anyways).
#31417, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 4
Turbo honda guys love that thing. It's been around for years, and I remember them having a groupbuy on it back in 2000 at http://www.groupbuycenter.com. Maybe they will have more groupbuys now...
________________________________________
2004 WRX - WR Blue Pearl 1997 Eclipse GS - Royal Sapphire Pearl
#31420, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 0
I've been talkin about this box for years.. but no one seems to listen.
Basically this will allow you to crank the ignition timing, and then it uses a knock sensor to pull back the timing, either across the board or per cylinder based on knock.. now if you think about it.. it's kinda cool.. because it will optimize the ignition timing for what your engine and fuel are capable of handling.
It's a safety device that actually will increase your HP if you set it up right.
the knock sensor has a threshold limit on it to differentiate between knock and normal engine noise.
Should your engine experience a fault (ie goes WAY lean), it will pull out timing to help prevent detonation..
ttyl
WheatKing
-- DSM Junkie -- 4 - 1G talons 4 - Avenger/sebrings 1 - Jeep to tow em home when they break
#31421, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 8
i was also going to just post about why we don't somehow use our knock sensor at all against the biggest threat to a boosted engine. this definately is an awesome system, and would relieve that detonation worry off of everyone's mind. is anyone sure that they make this for our ignitions? someone mentioned that it will reduce timing separately for each cylinder, which is possible in a distributor ign., but i was under the impression that our spark is delivered in pairs, meaning the 4 cylinders are not independant, but get their sparks in pairs.
if it isn't available for us i still think that we should somehow make use of the stock knock sensor on our engines. i remember this being discussed a little before and corbin explained why the sensor wasn't easy to get a reading from(something about multiple voltages that it outputs) but i believe it's something worth looking into.
#31422, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 9
I don't think it sparks in pairs but I believe that the way it is set up that you cannot tell which of 2 cylinders spark at any one time.
As for the knock sensor it is supposed to have voltage of either 0v (no knock) or 5v (knock). I may be off but I remember reading something to that effect last time I was reading through the electrical manual.
#31423, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 10
Wouldn't this be a good companion to AFX's new ecu that advances timing? That way you could run the most advanced timing possible for your situation, and the Safeguard would only retard what was neccesary to prevent detonation.
#31425, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 12
From what I got when I talked with the designer, it's just to adjust the timing according to engine knock and only when needed. That was over a year ago when Wheatking gave me the site link though :/
#31426, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 13
If there isn't any sort of ignition amplification, I think the programmeable HO MSD product might still be the pre-eminent in the field.
Not only does it do the all important ignition amplificiation, but IIRC, it has optional add-ons that include knock sensors, and most importantly, allow for boost sensitive timing retard.
_____________________________________ Jason ESi-T
04' BMW 325Ci 91' Nissan 240SX 98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)
The ONLY draw back to this system is that it doesnt make the igniton more powerful. But I think it is still good. Is making our ignition more powerful really that important?? Isnt retarding timing with the MSD or the crane kind of a guessing game?
#31430, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 15
Is he sure he knows your running a 420a? i know they work on the 4g63 ignition, but when i was looking into the J&S, they didnt have an application for my car...of course, that was last summer, theyve added more apps now...but just want to be sure.
isnt the neon ignition system the same as ours? i would have expected to see neon in the same application list as us is why i wondering WHICH eclipse they mean.
#31431, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 18
I told him in the e-mail that I had the chrysler 420a motor. I specified that it was originaly non turbo. I think this thing mihgt be the hot new thing in turboed 420a's. I am shocked that no one has tried this thing out before. I might be the first to do so.
#31432, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 19
But can't you do all that with the programmable msd? I know you can get a lot of additional shit for it like knock sensors...I just have the dis-2 and i am happy, knock on wood i have beat my engine for years now, running up to 24psi on pump gas like a moron... never heard any detonation, but then again, when i get really nasty i am usally listening to music really loud and stoned to the bone, ..... now that really makes you feel safe on the road doesnt it? haha
#31433, "RE: I might get this instead of the crane..you guys should too" In response to Reply # 20
By the time you ad up all the things you need for the MSD your are well over $500. This thing is only $550 and can retard timing off of knock. That basicaly makes your car act like factory turboed engine. I am kindof hesitant to be the first one to get this but we will see. I am not going to get anything just yet though. I need to break in the engine first and then I will start looking for a solution to detonation.
