I've been looking at both the crane and the crower camshafts. I've been examining the specs between the two and trying to figure out a few things. On both the crower and crane websites they show the factory specs but the specs on each site are WAY different.

Crowers site
OEM Cams
Duration 219/221
Duration @.05 166/172
Gross lift w/1.75 .273/.323
http://www.crower.com/cat/import/mitsu/camshafts.shtml

Cranes site
OEM Cams
Duration 243/243
Duration @.05 192/196
Gross lift 344/315
http://www.cranecams.com/import/mitsubishi.htm

Now I can't make a good educated decision on getting either crowers or cranes because I can't really compare the two and I don't know how they are comparing their cams to the stock ones. Can anyone shed some light on any of this?

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

i worked some numbers out a while back, and from the specs on 2GNT and the 2GNT factory Service manual, i cam out with an intake duration of 218* and an exhaust duration of 217*.

Take it with a grain of salt, i guess - you're the math major, not me.

http://www.2gnt.com/nuke/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=6

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

It just makes it hard to compare cams from different manufactures if they don't have the same base line. I could just use the how much above their stock specs it is but it'd be nice to know how the two could be SO FAR off in measuring stock specs.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

I've noticed this too. I do not have an explanation as to why this is the case either.

My guess, is they are measuring them "differently" from one manufacturer to another. When I say "differently" I mean maybe one is measuring the cam directly, the other is measuring what is happening after considering the valvetrain. I'm not certain about this, it's just a guess.

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

What it looks like to me is that Crane took the Neon specs and used them for the 2GNT...

Crower had a set of camshafts I sent them to work on the billets off of so their specs "should" be more accurate, and they match more what Dino has.

But then again they haven't updated the actually grind specs since they changed from their original pre-production/R&D specs... (since last time I checked, which was months ago).

I'll post the actualy Stage 2 Crower specs for all to see, when I digout the spec card.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Thanks Michael. I was leaning towards crowers even though they are a little more expensive. I'm curious what your spec card shows.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Crane 12s should pull a little harder than the Crower stage 2 cams. It has more to do with the lift than the timing. Crane gives more lift, signifigantly moreso on the intake cam. I also noticed that Crane uses different timing. I actually programmed all of the Crane and Crower cam specs into Dyno 2000. Here's a 3 way comparison stock vs Crane #12 vs Crower stage 2. It can be difficult to compare cams without a tool like this cause there are so many variables. You can see that, through the entire range, the Cranes achieve at LEAST 2 percent more VE then the Crowers. Its closer to 5% difference on the lower end.




95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Now, what specs did you use?

Here's the actual Crower Stage 2 specs:

Intake: Duration= 248* Lift= .389"
Exhaust: Duration= 246* Lift= .357"

At .050" tappet lift:
Intake: Opens -8.0* ATDC Closes 24.0* ABDC
Exhaust: Opens 31.0* BBDC Closes -17.0 BTDC

Lobe Separation" 110*

Duration at .050"
Intake: 196*
Exhaust: 194*

Lobe lift:
Intake: .222"
Exhaust: .204"




15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Interesting. I suppose I didn't really catch on to the fact that the actual specs were going to be any different from the ones on the web site. Brain fart I guess.

Well I used what I could from the specs that are currently listed on thier site. Since there is no mention of lobe centerlines or IVO/IVC/EVO/EVC event angles - I assumed stock centerlines. I'm going to list out the specs for all of the cams in question. All of these specs are based on seat to seat timing(which gives a more accurate simulation in Dyno2000).

Stock cams(from the overhaul manual 2gnt_420a_overhaul.pdf)
Intake lift : .324 in.
Exhaust lift : .278 in.
Intake centerline : 109.2 ATDC
Intake duration : 221 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 107.4 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 217 degrees
IVO : 1.3 BTDC
IVC : 39.7 ABDC
EVO : 35.9 BBDC
EVC : 1.2 ATDC
notes : What can I say. Stock cams are always shitty unless the car itself is exotic.

What I assumed for the Crower stage 2 cams. Again, here I assumed that they kept the stock centerlines.
Intake lift : .355 in.
Exhaust lift : .310 in.
Intake centerline : 109.2 ATDC
Intake duration : 240 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 107.4 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 240 degrees
IVO : 10.8 BTDC
IVC : 49.2 ABDC
EVO : 47.4 BBDC
EVC : 12.6 ATDC
notes : These are nice. Good duration. 23.4 crank degree overlap - a big jump from the measly 2.5 crank degree overlap on the shitty stockers. With 192 degree duration@.050 - it falls .6 degrees away from actual overlap@.050. Also, could be better with more lift on the exhaust cam. Better than stock.

Here's the Crane #12 cams
Intake lift : .364 in.
Exhaust lift : .364 in.
Intake centerline : 107 ATDC
Intake duration : 246 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 113 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 246 degrees
IVO : 16 BTDC
IVC : 50 ABDC
EVO : 56 BBDC
EVC : 10 ATDC
notes : Good lift. And with 204 degree duration@.050, there is a whoppin 5 degree overlap@.050 lift, which is most likely noticably audable. Good street cam.

And here's the new and improved actual Crower stage 2 spec.
Intake lift : .389 in.
Exhaust lift : .357 in.
Intake centerline : 106 ATDC
Intake duration : 248 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 114 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 246 degrees
IVO : 18 BTDC
IVC : 50 ABDC
EVO : 57 BBDC
EVC : 9 ATDC
notes : Nice intake lift for a street cam. The timing is a bit wierd though - nothing that gears cant take care of. Not much audible overlap with only 196/194 duration@050. Good street cam.

With the new spec, the Crane #12 and Crower stage 2s look almost identical. Its got a tiny bit more in the mid range, and its a give and take battle on the high end. I was playing around with the timing on the Crowers a bit and(like the Cranes) they have greater potential when adjusted properly....but out of the box they're almost identical in output/VE to the Cranes.




95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Hey Glad you guys posted a graph to compare the differences between both cranes and the crowers. If they really compare power wise identically then i'm leaning towards the crowers price wise. Currently Summit racing is pricing the crower cam at $370. Hey if there any cheaper priced cams,post it.

Superb information!

Now, metaljim, if you could, could you see what happens if you compare stock to crane #10s, #12, AND #14s??????

I have a hunch about the #14s on a naturally aspirated car (even though they are for turbos)

and, with the info you have listed for the stock cams and aftermarket cams, AND with more comparison dynos of the cams from the software, I would defenitely put this in the "things we've seen before" section

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

Thanks Todd.

Here's something that people ask every once in a while.
Q: What is our Volumetric Efficiency?
A: Look at the charts.

Ok, on with the simulations. Here's Todd's request - the 10 vs 12 vs 14. Yeah, it is an interesting comparison.

Crane #10
Intake lift : .354 in.
Exhaust lift : .354 in.
Intake centerline : 105 ATDC
Intake duration : 242 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 111 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 242 degrees
IVO : 16 BTDC
IVC : 46 ABDC
EVO : 52 BBDC
EVC : 10 ATDC
notes : definately whoop up on the stockers

Crane #12 - see above

Crane #14
Intake lift : .364 in.
Exhaust lift : .345 in.
Intake centerline : 105 ATDC
Intake duration : 246 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 111 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 238 degrees
IVO : 18 BTDC
IVC : 48 ABDC
EVO : 50 BBDC
EVC : 8 ATDC
notes : The turbo grind. The split duration only allows 26 degree total overlap - defeating reversion. Better than stock N/A - and isn't that what you are when you're not boosing anyway? If you look closely at it, it's just a street intake with a better-than-stock exhaust.




Here's another chart for the drag racers. This one has Crane's draggers, and I'm also including the Gude Bullfrog regrinds on this.

Are the Gudes draggers? Well, they have a drag lift, but very little duration - because they're regrinds. They have nearly identical lift to Crane #16 drag cams, but less overlap than the #10s. Thats the big performance difference between new billits and proper regrinds - you can't safely attain the same amount of duration on a regrind that you can with a new bumpstick. If you try, your srpings and rockers will take a beating...but if you keep the ramp angles safe then you can get descent lift. I think it's interesting that the Bullfrogs have less overlap than Crane's turbo grind, so for a turbo application they should keep reversion at bay pretty well - but they have really good lift. I'll personally find out how well they do under boost sometime this spring.

Crane #16
Intake lift : .374 in.
Exhaust lift : .374 in.
Intake centerline : 104 ATDC
Intake duration : 250 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 112 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 250 degrees
IVO : 21 BTDC
IVC : 49 ABDC
EVO : 57 BBDC
EVC : 13 ATDC
notes : First stage draggers. 208/208@.050 gives a whoppin 13 degree overlap @.050! Now we're talkin.

Crane #18
Intake lift : .394 in.
Exhaust lift : .394 in.
Intake centerline : 106 ATDC
Intake duration : 258 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 114 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 258 degrees
IVO : 23 BTDC
IVC : 55 ABDC
EVO : 63 BBDC
EVC : 15 ATDC
notes : All out draggers. 216/216@.050. Look at that lift! Look at that duration! There's no way that you can't hear that these are installed. These things tip the scale with 98% Volumetric Efficiency at 5500 RPM. The VE is over 90% from 4000 on up - and remember these sims are all run on a stock setup(low intake CFM, manifolds, CR and all). These cams will actually top 100% VE with 11:1 CR.

Gude Bullfrogs
Intake lift : .376 in.
Exhaust lift : .376 in.
Intake centerline : 109.2 ATDC
Intake duration : 237 degrees
Exhaust centerline : 107.4 BTDC
Exhaust duration : 237 degrees
IVO : 9.3 BTDC
IVC : 47.7 ABDC
EVO : 45.9 BBDC
EVC : 11.1 ATDC
notes : Regind. Beutiful lift. Only 20.4 degree total overlap should defeat reversion for turbo applications. Looks like a dragger from the lift...but it performs like a basic street cam.




95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Oh this post will not fade. I will move it once I'm sre we are done with it. Great info here!

Since the website isn't correct... maybe I should give Brian Crower a call/e-mail and see if he'll get me the actual specs for you guys.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Thanks for the comparison!

Yes, I noticed the #14 cam was essentially the same intake cam as the #12, but a rather "stock" duration exhaust cam with higher lift. I was guessing the #14 would perform better than the #12 in the low end but not as well in the top end. I was right about the top end, but it looks like from your comparisons that the #14s don't do much else than the #10s when staying naturally aspirated.

Nice job comparing the top end cams too.

One thing I noticed, all of the cams (even the drag cams) seem to have better volumetric efficiency even around 2500-3000 rpms when compared to stock cams. Is the program giving accurate low end numbers? Or, is it only below this rpm point that the high end cams loose volumetric efficiency and produce lower torque numbers?

Great post!

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

When you move it, download those pics and make sure either Jeff or myself uploads them to 2GNT - so someone can edit the posts so the pics stay with the post and not hog someone elses bandwidth.

That's some killer info, btw.

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

Well, I'm going with the crower stage 2s. Gonna order them this week.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Yeah Michael, that would be great. I think a Crane #16 vs #18 vs Crower 3 would be a nice chart.

Todd, the program automatically starts the simulations at 2000 RPM and I've also noticed those glitches at the 2000 RPM data point. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, but I think it's just a bug with the V.E. algorithm.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I'd use the 16's or 18's



________________________________________________________________________________________
Car Sold


http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/
www.Fast420A.com

This bump is for Michael. Any word on the Stage 3 spec from Crower?


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

No reply e-mail as of yet. If I don't anything in a while I'll call.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

So now when you are saying that there is more potential for the crower 2s and the crane 12s if they are properly adjusted, I'm guessing you were speaking via adjustable cam gears. Could you elaborate on what you were actually doing? I'm guessing you were adjusting them (in the software) so that the overlap was increased, right?

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Yeah, thats right - by simulating an adjustment with cam gears. The software lets you adjust alot of things - like advancing and retarding the gears. I've been able to tweak the power up for every cam profile(including the stockers) that I've tried simulating cam gear adjustmens for.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

So I am curious as what changes that you made to get the peak performance (theoretical) from all the difference camshafts.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

On the top end - it seems like smaller cams seem to react better than bigger cams to the same adjustment. This kind of makes sense to me, cause if you already have big overlap - one degree more isn't going to give you that much. Here's an example. Retarding the exhaust 4 degrees on the Crane 12 shows a nice torque gain on the lower end up to 3500, and a 5hp gain from 6500 up. The same adjustment on the Crane 16 shows a real nice torque gain down low, but there's only a 2hp gain on top.

In general - Retarding the exhaust always shows an improvement on the top end - and usually shows a neglagable decrease in power in the mid range. Sometimes retarding the exhaust shows a gain over the whole range. Advancind the exhaust always removes power from the entire range. Retarding the intake shows an increase in top end and a decrease in low/mid range(usually substantial compared to the gain in the top end). Advancing the intake usually shows an increase(sometimes neglegable) in the mid range and a loss(sometimes substantial) on the top end. Mixing and matching advance on the intake and retard on the exhaust usually shows a curve that is influenced by doing each adjustment on it's own.

I don't know what the theoretical answer is, but according to what I'm seeing on this program it seems that in general - retarding the exhaust seems the best way to make power overall. All cams are different though, and "whats looks good" in the low, mid, and high range may be different for some people. Most of the time I can get a descent curve by just retarding the exhaust. Somtimes it takes a mix of retarding the exhaust and mucking with the intake to find what I want.

One thing I will say about Dyno2000 - they could have made it easier to make adjustments for DOHC. They have this Timing adv/ret field - that you can easily adjust both by - like for a single cam engine. But if you want to tweak the timing seperately then you basically have to change the profile through the cam math window. It works and you get used to it, but it could be made easier.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

3 things

1. Big time positive rating for you
2. No way in hell this thread will come off the first page
3. Where the heck is my ratchet ... time to go cam gear adjusting. Let's put these theories to the test!

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Well,

I did the adjustments. According to the butt-o-meter. Pulls a little better in the middle didn't notice anything up top for -4* on Exhaust and 0* on Intake.

Good news is got my Crower Stage 2's today! Drool. !. Now I just need some time and a little info. Michael, when you installed your stage 2's you just put them in like regular cams right? I don't really understand this degree in stuff. Cams can only go in one way and then you just line up the timing marks on the gears. Any insight?

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Yes they are pre-indexed, set to work off of factory timing marks, and good to go. All can be done in one day, the part where extra hands are helpful/needed is timing the motor. The rest I did by myself and was done in about 6 to 7 hours. Give the cams a good coat of oil arond the cam journals and slip them in place. nothing too hard for a man of your talent Thura. Any questions, just hit me up via IM or e-mail.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Hey i'm also have one question clarified with the camshaft install. When installing new cams do all t-marks HAVE TO be in line for removal of the old cams and installation of new cams OR can camshafts be just removed without aligning the t marks?

How about a simple write-up with cam shaft install?

Check out the link to the FSM in DarkOne's sig. Full on instructions in there.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I got a question for you guys, how will cams such as the crane 16s react with boost. I know the increased overlap isnt great (blowing compressed air in the intake valves out the exhaust valves right?), but will it make a positive performance difference over stock cams with boost thrown in the mix? I want to try to break into the 14s NA before I turbo my car without buying any unecessary mods (ie headers). Currently my best is a 15.46, but that was on an uphill track, yes, so my car should've been about a tenth quicker Todd, hehe. Anyway, back on track I definitely think the cams will give me the nice kick in the ass I need to get consistent high 14s on a nice flat track.

Toney
'97 RS 5 Speed (totaled)
15.4606@88.42 Mph
96 Toyota Celica GT
88 Toyota Supra NA-T (w/ sports package)
Got Boost?? Hell yeah I-6 turbo powah baby!

so answer me this.... if u will....

w/10.5 comp, head fully worked, p&p, t/b, cai...header, 2.5 d/p all the way out (maybe a dump tube b/4 the flex section for track/racin use)...

what is the best cam gear/camshaft setup for street use, and for the fun nights, w/a 200 shot???
something compatable for both, but mainly street...

seangordon@hotmail.com

and props to the graphs up there... im thinkin 16s, but maybe a nitrous grind wouldn't make much of a difference... that's where i need help

werd

03 srt-4 13.130@112.47mph (n2o, stock turbo, 10/2003)
now: 20g, portfueler, bpu+++ (track/dyno times tbd...)

i farted on your wiki

Ok....here comes probably the best question. Exactly how do you get the 18s to idle and run properly on the stock ECU without it dumping fuel in at idle because of low vacuum? Or better yet, how do you stop the exhaust valves from getting toasted from being held slightly open during combustion?

I've been fighting both of these issues since last August. Granted, my cam grind is a little larger than the 18s, but the centerlines are pretty damn close to identical. I'm about ready to take my cams, ship them back to Crane and have them lop off about 20 degrees of duration @.050". That will allow them to at least idle and hold vacuum and still give me a lot of top end power from the amount of lift I have.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

>Ok....here comes probably the best question. Exactly how do
>you get the 18s to idle and run properly on the stock ECU
>without it dumping fuel in at idle because of low vacuum? Or

Drop the fuel pressure to compensate. Lower vacuum = higher fuel pressure.

>better yet, how do you stop the exhaust valves from getting
>toasted from being held slightly open during combustion?

Three words: Stainless steel valves.

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

If you want to run higher than 18s, then you'll most likely have to increase the mechanical(or static) compression ratio by using higher CR pistons or milling the head. Most manufacturers are quick to point out that a particular grind requires high compression - I think too quick sometimes. Anyone on the board run 18s with the stock compression ratio? How well they run depends alot on the dynamic compression ratio. I would think that 18s are possible, but I can't for the life of me find the rod length for our engine. You may be able to get it to run a bit better by retarding the intake cam(increase the DCR)...but from how you're describing it, I think you just need to raise the static CR(new pistons or mill the head). I don't know if this'll help but you could also try using a lower octane gas.

What Cranes are you running? Howell used to list the specs for everything up to 28(or somewhere around there), but I never wrote them down. Any cam specs to share?

I don't really understand your question about toasting exhaust valves. Even the stock cams open them 36 degrees BBDC. What can I say? They live in a harsh environment. If you're worried about burnin them up then get some stainless ones.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I don't see an S-AFC in your mods list buddy.

You're running 30lb injectors and big cams with no form of fuel/MAP modification. I am pulling about 10-12% at idle with my S-AFC and my Crower's to compensate for the vaccum, and to smooth out the idle.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

hmmm....Maybe I should add to my mods list. The cylinder head has 16 SS valves in it. Milled to a static CR of 10.6:1. But I do agree with Michael. 30lb injectors and no fuel control is an issue, but not the only one. The only thing that I have a problem with is they run fine with the stock cams. 30+MPG no matter how hard I beat on the car. I'm sure the O2s are much higher than with the stock injectors at WOT after 4k RPMS, but won't be able to verify that until I wire my new A/F in later.

Cams are a 0.430" lift with 224 duration @.050. Exhaust is open 48 BBDC @.050. I can't determine what how far to be able I should be able to go on the stock ECU and still retain good idle.

I also agree that low vacuum = higher fuel pressure. I'd have to knock down the injectors probably 30% or more to get them to idle properly. Then it would be a month of hunting and pecking to figure out the rest of the "map" on the AFC.

One other note that I left out was that they were degreed in properly according to the cam card. So I know that these are too much cam for my current setup right now. They will need to get some duration cut out of them in order for the stock ECU to be able to do any work. I will probably have about 20 degrees of duration @ .050 cut out but leave as much lift as possible. With that setup, they will have no trouble breathing at the top end.

I'll keep everyone informed of the progress. It's just frustrating. Hopefully, I'll have some dyno numbers for you too.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

which cams are going to create the most HP when running lots of boost before the over lap becomes too much??

16's? 18's?

the neon guys are running 22's

(*note this is for a 2.4 motor with 2gnt head*)

Bill

You can have it cheap, fast or good. Pick any two.

If you want it cheap and fast, it's not going to be good.
If you want it cheap and good, it's not going to be fast.
If you want it good and fast, it's not going to be cheap.

Bill posted the same question. A lot of what I've heard so far discussed is staying NA, what about boost? For instance and I don't have the total specs but a great cam for the 4G63 guys are Webcams 264/272. What is comparable to that? I know what kind of difference they can make, but lets help the 420A turbo guys out here a bit. Here is my setup, tell me what you think I should run:

Port polished head, intake, 60mm tb, 2mm oversized ss valves, dual springs w/titanium retainers, pt crusier lash adjusters and new roller rockers, 8,8:1 cp, t04e ball bearing, 3 inch all the way back, no cam gears, Safc, star stage (who knows anymore), missing link....either 625cc or 720cc injectors.......btw, think i may need an MSD box?

I'm going to take your opinion on this one because I want to be running around 18 on the street and 22-24 at the track....so lets see what we can find out huh!

N/T Wiseman DSMTuners.com
N/T Guru Southeast DSM

Alright, im in the middle of a top-end rebuild project. Heres whats been done so far, head p&p & milled to increase compression by 1.8pts, Crane springs, Eaton Lifters, Mopar Roller Rockers, stock valves (budget, wife was already bitchin about all the money i was spending & i even got all the head work done for free) honed intake mani, bored TB 58mm, OBX header and 2.5" Exhaust w/ high flo cat!! The question is, what cams?? Ive been thinking about crane #16 or #18?? If i get 18's will have to get fuel upgrades to keep the car running (S-AFC injectors ect...) S-AFC wont come for awhile, im already putting alot into this project, i want one bad!! So how will i do with #16's with stock fuel system and no S-AFC?
This is a great post, keep it up guys!!!!!!!!!!

"Scars are tatoos with better stories"
10.17 @ 70mph 1/8th Mile

This is my bump, even though the thread never moves lol!! I was wondering if someone had an answer to my question ^^^^^

"Scars are tatoos with better stories"
10.17 @ 70mph 1/8th Mile

with 16s I would rewire the fuel pump, and\or get a better one, get a new fuel filter, clean out stock injectors. But then again maybe your car can handle 16s.

18s on the other hand, I would go ahead and invest in a SAFC. Check out the neon board, plenty of members over there have 18s and see what their setup is, ours should be similar.

The higher the grind you get, the more neccessary some form of fuel management is. Be it an S-AFC, or an adjustable fuel ressure regulator. I think above the 16's it could start to be a problem with idle, and the stock ECU loosing power due to too much fuel (which it already gets).



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

S-AFC installed and currently tuned to run at 0.92V according to the "Blue Wire Mod". The car does pull much better right now.

But back on topic, I think I'm just going to take the current cams and get the duration cut down to a more reasonable level. 224 degrees of duration @ .050" is too much for a street driven car. I don't believe the AFC is going to let me get enough adjustment on the lower RPMs to stop the ECU from flooding the cylinders with fuel if I drop in the cams as they sit now.

Obviously, it's going to take some more tuning with the AFC to get the O2 level back to something safe with more flow, but I also think that 14s are in the near future. I ran a 15.67 @ 87.5MPH last weekend and I was still running about 0.95V on the O2s and bogging every launch because the drag radials were set at too low of a tire pressure. Hopefully, I'll get to the track this weekend. But will only update this thread when I get the cams taken care of.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

Look at the Crower Stage 2 specs I posted, I've tuned an idle that does't want to die or need the occassional blip of the throttle with the S-AFC. I wouldn't get the cam scut down if I were you.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

I'd probably try lowering the fuel pressure before getting the cams cut. Your injectors are 80 cc/min bigger than stock and you're running on stock pressure?


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I'm not going to lower the fuel pressure because that will screw with the spray pattern. Not only that, I've only got the AFC to -19% to acheive 0.93V at WOT. Meaning that if I were still on the stock injectors, I would overrun them at about 5500RPMs even on the stock cams.

Whatever I do with the cams, I know I will need the larger injectors. I'm straying away from screwing with the fuel system because that can be a nightmare all unto itself.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

Hey Sam, what are you running the S-AFC at 1000k for a good idle?

*edit* low throttle setting that is.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Hey guys.. all these numbers.. lookin at the kick ass dyno chart (great job btw) and these numbers blow me away.. i want to hear from someone who has actually installed one of these cams ...

I'm stage IIIish turbo.. and according to the graph.. i'm only 50 hp away from what you guys are showing.. can be done with just a 500$ cam.. that's insane..

What kinda et's are u guys getting w/the cams.. dyno proven increases.. etc.. lemme know

Kick ass post.. !!

Stage III HRC
8.5:1 compression
12 psi @ 2300 rpm
fully built engine..
oo.. and it goes vroom

best et. 14.49 @ 101

Michael - Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this, but I'm currently running -18% with my 30lb injectors for a pretty good idle. I've been playing with it so I don't get that incredible stink in the morning from cold startup. But still rich enough to keep everything safe. From there, I ramp it down to about -10% to 4k RPMs on the low setting (35% throttle). Up top on the high settings, I have it at 3k:-21% 4k:-22% 5k:-22% 6k:-21% 7k:-20% 8k:-19%. It is incredibly wise to use the 8k throttle setting so that you can actually run to redline (7250RPM). Otherwise, the ECU will pull timing badly and it'll waste a good run.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

I'm planning on boosting soon but I want to get cam's came gears and really as many N/A mods as possible beforehand. I want to get cams that will give me an extra kick while N/A but will scream once I boost, I've heard the #14's give a decent power kick while N/A but skyrockets with boost. Any suggestions?

_______________________________________________________
AIM: Critical Waltz

FOR SALE PM Me for info:
Red '95 GS ATX with mods

New Ride:
94 Acura Integra GS-R 5-Speed
Comptech Intake
Tein S-Tech
On the way:
Integra Type R Transmission with LSD
GReddy Turbo Kit (by end of summer hopefully)

chris2wire: you've been uber'd

If you are getting adjustable cam gears you can add overlap while NA to turbo grinds.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Smooth idle? We don't need no stinking smooth idle.

Mods List:
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Very interesting discussion here. I'd like to see some real comparison dyno charts of a turbo'd 420A with any aftermarket grind in it. Cams are expensive, but I think they ought to make a huge difference on a turbo'd car. BTW... You don't really need an SAFC on 30lb. injectors, just a SFMU and the bleed valve. SAFC's cost too much anyway, and have those timing advance issues. Some of you guys sound like you are leaning it out pretty harsh. Try lowering the fuel pressure before you go -20% on the SAFC.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

which cames give the biggest gains starting from idle and up to 6500RPM on a boosted car? Thats what I'm tryin to find out. Charts arent up anymore so....

Thanks Dino YOU ROCK

Why doesn't someone make of those with boost? I'm sure they would react differantly.

hugh? waht I miss?

Member # 751


FOUNDER of the Central Cali chapter of 2GNT!
(I got kicked out after I refused to go Cow tiping) - Hehehe you know who this is for

I ran the Crane #10, #12, #14 against each other with a turbo preset of a Garrett T45 48-9, 1.75 Pressure Ratio, 350-cfm, 77% efficiency, no intercooler, & a max of 10psi. It appears that the #14 cam isn't worth a shit. The #10 has a longer exhaust duration, which explains it. Even NA, the #14 isn't any better than the #10. It's supposed to be the "turbo Grind", but doesn't appear to be, which sucks. What sucks even worse is those are the cams I've got



My question is, will the cams for the Neon head work? If the firing order is the same, and cam rotation is the same, shouldn't they be interchangeable? I noticed that the #16 for the neon are almost identical, except the intake cam +2 degrees from ours, but the exhaust is -2. With adjustable cam gears, couldn't you index them correctly? I run my exhaust cam -2 anyway. My only concern is, are the cam sensors the same since the cams are transversed? Technically, it doesn't matter which side the cam is on, as long as it opens at the same general time.

Now I compared the 12, 16, & 18 to see how they look side by side under boost:

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Why are the Hp/Tq curves crossing each other at 6100rpms? I guess that just goes to show that a computer simulation can only give you an idea of what's going on. I'm considering some 14s or 16s, and i was also wondering if the Neon cams will work. If anyone has any input, thanks now.

Lets just say this... I'm over 100whp and soon to cross 200whp. Thanx 2GNT! Now if I could only learn to prove it.

The reason the torque curves cross is because when you start to gain High RPM HP (Putting more lift & duration), you tend to lose torque. I have the 14's, but they seem to be even matched with the 10's. I would recommand 12's or 16's. Here's the comparison between the 10's & 14's, the intake cam for the 14's opens 2 degrees before the 10, and closes 2 degrees after, which provides for 4 degrees more duration on intake side, and has .010" more lift. So the 14 intake cam is better than the 10. Here's what stumps me, it's almost exactly the oposite on exhaust cams, the 10 exhaust cam has 4 degrees more duration, 2 degrees on both sides (open & close), and .009" more lift. The exhaust cam is where a lot of HP comes from. The 10 actually produces a little more HP. If you put a 14 intake cam & a 10 exhaust cam, it produes more than both 14's. The 12 intake cam is roughly the same as the 14, but the 12 intake is -2 degrees compared to the 14. But the exhaust cam has a whopping 8 degrees more duration than the 14, opens 6 degrees before the 14, and closes 2 degrees after the 14. Then, it has .019" more lift. If anything, I'd by the 12's. You gain a good HP curve without losing torque. If you retard a 12 exhaust cam 6 degrees, the HP curve is extremely close to the 16 cam at 0, and actually rises above at 5500 RPM, but you lose a little torque. Also, I wouldn't recommend it unless you know how much clearence you have from the piston & valve, unless you enjoy pulling the head off and changing bent or broken valve

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Also, the reason why the HP & TQ cross a different times on the different charts is because the scale changes from one chart to the next. That throws the graphs off, compare numerical values seperately (HP to HP, TQ to TQ) on the graphs, not how the curves over lap.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Neon cams will not work, unless intake and exhaust have the exact same specs, then you have to index them yourself. Which means you need the nifty tool that tells you when .050" of lift has been reached. Then you need an index wheel, and set the cams up from scratch. The intake cam on the Neon hold the cam magnet, where the 2GNT exhaust cam hold the cam magnet, which is why you would have to switch the two.

So, no Neon cams will not work. Since we have grind available for us why would you want to try to monkey with Neon cams, when what you want is avaible for our cars?



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

It was only a thought, you don't have to be so condescending. I found a set of #16 cams for a neon for $240, when they retail for around $375.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Sorry, I didnt' mean to come off condescending. I just wanted to make sure I conveyed how much work would be involved in trying to use them.



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Props to the graphs!

When ordering new cams are new cam bearings included with the package? Are they even needed? My 420a has ~52K miles on it and am thinkin about cams after reading this post.

---

2012 2500HD LML

Our cams don't use bearings around the cam journals. But I do recommend picking up a set of cam seals and replacing them.



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Originally posted by Michael_97RS
Our cams don't use bearings around the cam journals. But I do recommend picking up a set of cam seals and replacing them. http://www.exileracing.com una salus victus Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

I think Mike is still trying to get those from some do0d at Crower, but while we're in here, what are the chances that someone who knows wtf they're doing could compare the Crower 3s with the Crane 18s? Maybe there is a graph of the Cranes above I should check out. I think the accuracy would be better if they were done at the same time though. If I remember right, there are a buttload of variables to input into the dyno program, right?

Thanks!

ehh...might as well follow dr1665 to be cool
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

I'm curious what specs you set on the motor in the program. I try to underestimate when inputing the info. I can host the pics for you if you like. Also, I posted the cam spec files and motor spec files at http://www.2kmotors.com/luke/stuff/

Let me know if I may have done something wrong, or had something off.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

PS:
Where it says 420A_##, the number is the crane cam.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

Skrilla,
Send the files to luke@2kmotors.com. On the Dyno program, did you use the mitsu 2.0L that's in the program? If you look, the bore and stroke is different from our 420A. I'm guessing it's the 4G63. I used the corrected values on my files.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by Skrilla OK I'll work that out too I'm interested in what I'll be doing which is either the 18's or the 3's at 12+ compression but I can put up a BONE STOCK 420a with nothing more than these cams. ... These are high compression cams and to utilize their full efficiency high compression is needed.

Thanks sir. Can you replace the stock 420a with the 10.5:1 CR? That's what I'm currently running. I understand the blow through too. Valves open at the same time, intake and exhaust sir. Thanks you mang!

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

Originally posted by DR1665
Thanks sir. Can you replace the stock 420a with the 10.5:1 CR? That's what I'm currently running. I understand the blow through too. Valves open at the same time, intake and exhaust sir. Thanks you mang!

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

So is that to say that on stock CR, the crane 18s should give a 15hp bump (vs 140hp stock) and that running them on the 10.5:1 would yield about 160chp? That is very good news for me if this is true.

I compared the Crower 2(improved), Crane 16, and Crane 18 in two charts. The first chart shows them at 11.5:1 compression, the second is 12.5:1. At 6000RPM, they all gained about 4-6 HP. The only noticeable difference is they hold a little more HP at higher RPM. The 18's @ 11.5 begin to drop off at 6000RPM, but at 12.5 they hold it until 6500RPM and don't drop off as drastic. The other two still begin to drop off at 6000RPM, just not as drastic.

Here are the charts:
11.5:1 Compression

12.5:1 Compression


I have a question Skrilla and I were wondering about. On Crane's website, they have the lift listed as Gross Lift, is that the lift including the 1.7 rocker(assuming that's the ratio), or is that the actual lift of the cam lobe? In the program, the lift it requires is lift at valve. For instance, the 16's have a lift of .374"; if that's actual cam lift, then the lift at valve would be .6358" with a 1.7 rocker(.374x1.7). As you can see, that makes a huge difference, a 12 hp difference at 6500RPM, according to the program. I'm kinda guessing that since it's 'gross' lift, it's everything included(rocker & lobe), but I want to know for sure. TIA

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Got Quick question For Skrilla....

Can you make a cam graph for a 2.4 hyb with s20g running 21
psi, 8.5 compression, Intercooled, with 3 inch exhaust and no
cat??

Hadent looked into cams yet...doh!! need some guidance to
which use..
email it to  Dragonsamurai79@hotmail.com  if you can make it , or if you can post it..no problem

Originally posted by BlueMoonEclipse
Got Quick question For Skrilla.... Can you make a cam graph for a 2.4 hyb with s20g running 21 psi, 8.5 compression, Intercooled, with 3 inch exhaust and no cat?? Hadent looked into cams yet...doh!! need some guidance to which use.. email it to Dragonsamurai79@hotmail.com if you can make it , or if you can post it..no problem

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

Originally posted by BlueMoonEclipse
Got Quick question For Skrilla.... Can you make a cam graph for a 2.4 hyb with s20g running 21 psi, 8.5 compression, Intercooled, with 3 inch exhaust and no cat?? Hadent looked into cams yet...doh!! need some guidance to which use.. email it to Dragonsamurai79@hotmail.com if you can make it , or if you can post it..no problem

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

The advertised lift and specs are almost always domne at the cams, so the lift at the valve should be even higher.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Here's what I've got for Crower 3 specs. They may be a bit conservative, but they "should" be more accurate than before.

Intake: Duration= 254* Lift= .444"
Exhaust: Duration= 250* Lift= .437"

Duration at .050":
Intake: 205*
Exhaust: 200*

Lobe lift:
Intake: .254"
Exhaust: .250"



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Wow look at that lift...hey Mike you thought your idle was bad, I dare you to pop these bad boys in your car...hmmmm...wanna get rid of those stage 2's..

Can we say Ti valve spings? Imagine those at 8K (shit imagine the valve float on the poor springs)

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

Perhaps my friend... just not right now.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm