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Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine topic #12816
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Subject: "allright, I hate "backpressure!!!"" Previous topic | Next topic
ModeratorVX100Jan-24-02 07:45 AM
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#12816, "allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""




          

I'm going to complain now, so if you don't want to hear it, skip over this post. This is a complaint in general, it is NOT directed towards anyone.

I don't understand why people keep talking about "backpressure" and exhaust systems.

I don't know which moron with a V8 back in 1962 started it, or why people keep poisoning fresh young minds with this crazy explanation of how an internal combustion engine's exhaust system works, but it has to stop!

I've actually written about this, it's on my friend's web site. I think it's a good explanation, here's the link

http://ruesparadise.com/HTML/Exhaust.htm

BTW (shameless plug here) he does some good vinyl graphics work, so check out his site

But, here's is what I am basically saying in the article. Backpressure means NOTHING!

The only thing that matters is VELOCITY! Exhaust gas velocity! The faster the exhaust gasses are moving, the more power your car will make, PERIOD! Actually, it's the same thing with the intake too. The faster you can get the air into the engine, the more power you will make.

It doesn't make a difference if you can get an engine to run on buckshot and chicken shit, the faster you can get the buckshot and chicken shit through the engine, the more power you will have.

Having too big of an exhaust pipe, too big of an intake manifold plenum, too big exhaust ports will cause your car to run like shit and have no power. It can also cause hesitation, bad gas mileage, and poor drivability.

A small exhaust pipe lets a small amount of gas flow quickly, and slows down a large amount of gas (that's easy for most people to understand, think a 5.7L V8 running at 6000 rpms with a 1 inch exhaust pipe, it wouldn't run too good)

Now, with a large exhaust pipe, if you are only putting a tiny amount of gas flow into it, that gas will slow down! This means less power.

Now, this means a car with a tiny engine and a huge exhaust will not run right at low rpms (or maybe not at all). It isn't due to "backpressure" at all, it's due to slow exhaust gas velocity at low rpms.

Just check out this exchange we had on the message board

http://www.2gnt.com/dcforum/DCForumID13/3333.html

Saberkahn and I are saying the exact same thing. It is in regards to head porting, not exhaust, but the principle of air velocity applies to both intake and exhaust. Eclipse804 saw major drivability and power problems becasue the head on his car was ported too much.

Right now in some nascar cars (I think it was nascar) the V8s being used have the same size, or SMALLER ports than the factory stock heads! This is to keep the exhaust gas velocity up and get them more power.

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: allright, I hate, TeamAvenger, Jan-24-02 07:55 AM, #1
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", tim97rs, Jan-24-02 07:58 AM, #2
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", Mystic511, Jan-24-02 08:03 AM, #3
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", John99RS, Jan-24-02 08:11 AM, #4
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", 9D9 MITSU RS, Jan-24-02 08:11 AM, #5
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", TeamAvenger, Jan-24-02 08:14 AM, #6
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", TeamAvenger, Jan-24-02 08:16 AM, #7
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", tim97rs, Jan-24-02 08:19 AM, #8
RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!", iamnotwhoiam, Jan-24-02 08:48 AM, #9
RE: allright, I hate, FuSi0N, Jan-24-02 09:24 AM, #10
      RE: allright, I hate, Global Ruler Of All ThingsDarkOne, Jan-24-02 09:56 AM, #11
           RE: allright, I hate, Super20G, Jan-24-02 03:12 PM, #12
           RE: allright, I hate, ModeratorVX100, Jan-25-02 04:33 AM, #13
           RE: allright, I hate, TeamMichael_97RS, Jan-25-02 11:24 AM, #14
                RE: allright, I hate, TeamMichael_97RS, Jan-25-02 11:26 AM, #15
                     RE: allright, I hate, tim97rs, Jan-26-02 03:01 AM, #16
                          RE: allright, I hate, Teamdougie2, Jan-26-02 10:02 AM, #17
                               RE: allright, I hate, ModeratorVX100, Jan-26-02 01:39 PM, #18

TeamAvengerJan-24-02 07:55 AM
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#12817, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 0




          

AMEN I agree totally.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

  

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tim97rsJan-24-02 07:58 AM
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#12818, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 0


          

So heres a question for ya from someone who aint all that atomotivly edjukated: what would be a happy marrige of intake vs.output? would a 52mm TB and stock exhaust run as well as a 55mm TB and 2.5in exahust? is there some kind of formula used to get the right ratio of air in to gas out?

USED TO HAVE...Everything you wish you had, and then some...

You are somebody special Tim, you matter! - from the admins (but nobody likes you, because your username is just like that other guy's, and you whine a lot)

  

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Mystic511Jan-24-02 08:03 AM
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#12819, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 0


          

nice post.. nice article.. thanks for the info!

ps.. does your friend make stickers for the top windshield of our cars? I wanna get some custom words for the front.


16.1 @ 87.11
http://www.virtuallyinfamous.com

ARD 57mm tb and p&p manifold, Neuspeed STB, Pro-kits, Illuminas, Injen CAI with K&N, 2.5" pacesetter catback,
AF/X UDP, Rear STB, Powerslot rotors, RRE SS Brakelines.

  

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John99RSJan-24-02 08:11 AM
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#12820, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 3


          

Yeah man...good article there.






http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3130861

  

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9D9 MITSU RSJan-24-02 08:11 AM
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#12821, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 3




          

I dunno, I think you need a lil. When I had a str8 pipe instead of my resonator, my bottom end suffered. Now that I have about a 3.5" around glasspack resonator in place, torque is better than ever. IS this b/c back pressure or because I opened it up more?

  

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TeamAvengerJan-24-02 08:14 AM
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#12822, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 3




          

Well I can't say for sure about this formula but I have a 2.5" catback exhaust w/ a 55mm bored tb and now a ported intake manifold. I used to put a silencer in my exhaust. Once I forgot to bolt it in and I revved the engine ... basically it shot from the car being right in front of the garage (my garage is located behind my house facing the street) all the down the driveway, across the street and hit the curb on the opposite site of the street and clanged there and landed in the people's across the street lawn. hehe.

The exhaust gases at my exhaust tip has a mean bit a force behind it and it's DAMN hot. It sweet.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

  

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TeamAvengerJan-24-02 08:16 AM
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#12823, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 0




          

Does buckshot and chicken shit combust???

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

  

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tim97rsJan-24-02 08:19 AM
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#12824, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 7


          

it does if you have the right mixture of beaver piss and goat farts!

USED TO HAVE...Everything you wish you had, and then some...

You are somebody special Tim, you matter! - from the admins (but nobody likes you, because your username is just like that other guy's, and you whine a lot)

  

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iamnotwhoiamJan-24-02 08:48 AM
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#12825, "RE: allright, I hate "backpressure!!!""
In response to Reply # 0




          

now it all makes sense.. this post and the article should be the first thing someone reads when it comes to exaust work.

-Jason

97 Talon ESi-T (forever in progress...)


95 GS (Gone)
16.74@83.18mph
119.8 whp - 113.3 lbs/ft


2GNT #677
My Wiki Page: www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=Iamnotwhoiam
Pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/iamnotwhoiam/Talon/

  

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FuSi0NJan-24-02 09:24 AM
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#12826, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 9




          

Wow, time for me to get that 5" exhaust piping! j/k

"Liberate Tutemea Ex Infernis"
More pics at www.cyn0sure.homestead.com

  

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Global Ruler Of All ThingsDarkOneJan-24-02 09:56 AM
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#12827, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 10




          

buckshot and chicken shit.. LMAO.. aaahahaha

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

  

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Super20GJan-24-02 03:12 PM
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#12828, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 11


          

ahh, just get a 3'' downpipe and 4'' straight pipe the rest of the way back. works for me , we dont need no stinkin' cat/resonator/muffler/o2 sensors, hehe, zoom zoom

  

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ModeratorVX100Jan-25-02 04:33 AM
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#12829, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 12




          

I think my friend does do windshield banners. I haven't asked him if he does, if you e-mail him I'm sure he'll answer your question.

I don't know of any "formula" off the top of my head. There are some formulas in some books out there ("the scientific design of exhaust and intake manifolds" to name one) but the formulas are always a little different.

And, the ratio doesn't matter. If you have a 75mm throttle body and a 4 inch exhaust, the ratio of the two would be good, but you are still going to be too big for our engines (a bigger engine, or one running boost, would be a much different story).

Also, 9D9, if your low end has decreased, you have lost that power (torque) at low rpms because the exhaust gasses aren't flowing as fast as they used to. Removing the restriction could do that at the bottom end, but it's still due to air velocity.

Having the resonator in place probably allowed the lower volume/mass of exhaust gas at lower rpms to flow well. Removing it improved the flow at higher rpms, but made it slow down at the lower rpms.

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

  

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TeamMichael_97RSJan-25-02 11:24 AM
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#12830, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Hey Dino I think we could use another link on the main page to the exhaust info...

"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard,
The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All Motor Beast in the Making

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

  

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TeamMichael_97RSJan-25-02 11:26 AM
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#12831, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Although I do want to say that I don't think 2.5" is too big. I have a Dynomax cat-back that's 2.5" on my Neon(haven't done the xhaust on the Eclipse yet(she needs it) and I don't feel a loss in low end. Seems to have added power all the way around, if not stayed the same. I don't feel any slower points.

"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard,
The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All Motor Beast in the Making

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

  

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tim97rsJan-26-02 03:01 AM
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#12832, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 15


          

thats what i thought about my set-up, no loss in low end, if not a gain. perceptions can be deceiving...(maybe) = )

USED TO HAVE...Everything you wish you had, and then some...

You are somebody special Tim, you matter! - from the admins (but nobody likes you, because your username is just like that other guy's, and you whine a lot)

  

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Teamdougie2Jan-26-02 10:02 AM
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#12833, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 16




          

I've definitely noticed a power increase all around, too. NO noticable loss in low end. I think 2.5" is perfect for NA modders.



Doug

Xtreme Performance Services

Race Engines · Transmissions · Turbo Systems · EFI & Tuning · Fabrication · Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  

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ModeratorVX100Jan-26-02 01:39 PM
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#12834, "RE: allright, I hate"
In response to Reply # 17




          

Does anyone have before and after dyno runs of 2 inch, 2 1/4, or 2 1/2 inch exhausts? That would be a good way to confirm what's going on.

"Tutto fa brodo."

Todd Scungio
98 RS
15.173 @ 90.70 MPH

And also a 2011 Ralliart

  

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