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Subject: "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"

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Avenger	Sep-01-04 05:17 PM
Old School 2GNTer 2453 posts,

#75868, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to In response to 26
Sep-01-04 05:18 PM by Avenger

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
I understand what your saying avenger, but calculations are not always right, either. I find it hard to believe that someone can make a car run better by plugging in numbers by calculations rather than driving it and using it on a dyno. I am not trying to start a debate either. I understand your point and listen to alot of 2ngt members that have full knowledge of our motor like you and siueclipse.

Umm ... I have a problem with your last statement. Please don't ever lump me in with him. I have yet to see him display any knowledge about the motor.

Yes, you do make a good point by dyno tuning BUT I said they are baseline numbers that you start from. You have to start somewhere. You can't just guess at what setup to start off with and roll from there. There has to be a basis for what you will start out at and then tune from there. But in the same sense those numbers aren't ever really so far off that you are not in the vicinity of the real world number. I'm sure that those numbers are rich but by his own admission he tunes fairly rich (11.2:1). So even if it started out at 10:1 through the calculations you're not removing so much that you will cut those numbers by 1/3(you'd have to do at least that much to get some semblance of decent full boost FP). And lets remember this all just FP adjustment tuning. That's all he has. Anyway you cut it +-10% off the FP is still WAY out there in terms of FP. But like I said that wasn't my only piece of reasoning. Take a close look at his setup and his claims ... he provides all the information you need to know to see it doesn't add up.

But anyway I digress. Your original question mentioned that you felt you were running rich. Though the use of a wideband was mentioned no one ever went into detail on WHY it's so much more accurate than a narrow band that you've been using to tune. A NBo2 is 0-1V output o2 sensor. It is generally very cheap and is designed to be accurate right around stoichmetric (14.7:1). It is the reason why it is found on almost every vehicle now. The problem for using this in tuning is that it is VERY inaccurate everywhere else in the AF range. That is to say at rich AFR and lean AFR the slope of the voltage graph is very high. At close to stoichmetric values the slope of the graph is very low. Imagine this is the graph of the o2 Voltage vs AFR. It would look something like this (it's gonna be ugly but it's the best I can do in this text environment).

\
\
\
\
- -
\
\
\
\

The flat area isn't really flat but just a small gradual slope. Anyway I hope you get the jist of it. So essentially it's very difficult to tell if you are at 13:1 or 12:1 on a NBo2 because the voltages that represent each of those AFRs are only seperated by hundreths or thousandths of a volt.

Now on the otherhand a WBo2 is a 5V output. Much more expensive as you can tell by just trying to do some preliminary shopping on them. But being 5V it has a lot more room to be accurate. The slope is constant and therefore the graph of the voltage to AFR is linear. It is accurate everywhere in the AF range and thus provides essential information for tuning.

Now back to you. You say you're running rich but you can only base that on your NBo2 output. The problem is that you just don't know. 13:1 and 12:1 are both "rich" and will light up the green side of your AF gauge. Until you know otherwise you're just guessing.

Oh, about the black smoke thing. Yeah, I had black smoke out of my tail pipe too. Though right now it doesn't. It seems I melted some forged pistons running lean somewhere in the RPM range. Huh, go figure. By the logic in this post I should have been uber rich. Hmmm.

Like I said before ... think about what someone says before taking it a face value. There are a lot of people that sound like they know what they are talking about but just don't have a clue or are just telling you something that someone told them.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

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Running rich, cannot figure out problem! [View all] , freddy_00_69, Aug-31-04 06:20 AM

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Aug-31-04 06:26 AM, #1

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Aug-31-04 03:12 PM, #2

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Aug-31-04 06:53 PM, #3

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:31 PM, #4

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Aug-31-04 07:34 PM, #5

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:37 PM, #6

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Aug-31-04 07:37 PM, #7

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:39 PM, #8

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:14 AM, #9

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 06:34 AM, #10

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 07:06 AM, #11

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 08:50 AM, #12

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 11:32 AM, #13

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Michael_97RS, Sep-01-04 11:41 AM, #14

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 11:46 AM, #15

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Michael_97RS, Sep-01-04 11:49 AM, #17

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 11:48 AM, #16

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Global Ruler Of All Things

DarkOne, Sep-01-04 11:57 AM, #18

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 12:02 PM, #19

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 01:08 PM, #20

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-01-04 01:13 PM, #21

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 01:52 PM, #22

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 02:58 PM, #23

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Avenger, Sep-01-04 04:01 PM, #24

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 04:50 PM, #26

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Avenger, Sep-01-04 05:17 PM #27

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

ner947, Sep-02-04 07:39 AM, #36

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 04:41 PM, #25

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:18 PM, #28

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:24 PM, #29

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:26 PM, #30

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 07:04 PM, #31

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Sep-01-04 07:29 PM, #32

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-02-04 03:42 AM, #33

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, widebodied, Sep-02-04 04:21 AM, #34

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-03-04 11:56 AM, #37

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-02-04 04:31 AM, #35

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, MrSlick, Sep-03-04 02:35 PM, #38

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, MrSlick, Sep-03-04 02:37 PM, #39

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, turbo8u, Sep-03-04 02:43 PM, #40

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