Welcome to the 2GNT Forum! Interested In Advertising with 2GNT?
Home | Site Background| Info&Specs| Mods & Tech Info | CAPS | Part Reviews | Donate | 2GNT Stickers |
Search Printer-friendly copy 0 Users in Chat
Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine topic #71386
View in threaded mode

Subject: "a technical discussion" 1 | 2 | Previous topic | Next topic
turbo8uMar-24-04 02:33 PM
Member since Jun 15th 2003
10552 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71386, "a technical discussion"




          

im bored....and this goon keeps e-mailing me about how well his 'e-boost' is working, so i thought i;d clear this all up for anyone who might think its true, feel free to input any information, etc:


Ok before I go into this e-boost stuff, let's look at the concepts of turbocharging/supercharging/boosting in general


we all know that an engine digests air that, when combined with gasoline, is used to make the powerful explosion inside an internal combustion engine. The more air = the more fuel that can be added which in turn, makes a higher pressure inside the combustion chamber resulting in a higher power stroke and in turn creating torque to the crank. Now, as you may or may not know…horsepower is only a measurement of torque at a given RPM, and a higher torque at a given rpm = more power.

this explains that more combustion pressure during the power stroke in turn makes more power. But we have a 4 stroke engine now, so what about the other 3? Before the engine can make power (power stroke) there is the compression stroke. And before that, there is the intake stroke. And after compression is the exhaust stroke. During the intake stroke, the piston moves down in the bore, creating a lower than atmospheric pressure. The pressure outside of the cylinder (atmospheric) is now higher than the pressure inside the cylinder so in turn, air flows into the cylinder to fill it. Contrary to what some of you may think about the workings of an internal combustion engine, the piston itself DOES NOT suck air into the chamber. It does not happen. Skrilla made a post about this a while back. I actually got it wrong, and since then….learned up. Like I said ^^^ the greater the amount of air that fills the cylinder, the higher the pressure inside the combustion chamber will be (after the compression and power stroke that is), ok so now that all that nonsense is out of the way…let’s move on:



im sure you might be familiar, or have at least heard of the term ‘volumetric efficiency’ volumetric efficiency (VE) is used to describe the amount of fuel/air in the cylinder in relation to regular atmospheric pressure. If the cylinder is filled with fuel and air at atmospheric pressure (14.7psi) then the engine is said to have 100% volumetric efficiency. In a 2 liter four cylinder like our 420a, each cylinder has a volume of 499.18cc. ok this is how I got that:

Our engine = 121.8cu in

1cc = 0.061 cubic inches

121.8 cu in divided by 0.061 = 1996.72cc, so truly not in “fact” a 2 liter yet.

the 420a being a 4 cylinder means 1996.72cc/4cylinders = 499.18cc of air per cylinder (at 100% VE)


if one cylinder breathes in 424cc on the intake stroke, the engine is said to have an 85% volumetric efficiency (typical of most 420a’s) ( 424cc/499.18cc = 0.849 or 85% rounded up). Volumetric efficiency will change with a lot of different things such as how good the intake ports flow, how large they are, cam profiles, valve timings, etc. lets just say a 420a has a 85% VE. If a 420a 2 liter revving to 7200 rpm WOT, redline, this means that it eats 7188.2L of air per minute (one intake stroke to every two rpm), or 119.8 liter per second. Another way to look at it this flow is in cubic feet per minute and, and since 1cc = 0.061cu in and 1 liter = 1000cc each minute this engine consumes a approximately 254 cubic feet of air per minute. now….. a little 60mm diameter PC cooling fan flows only about 18 cubic feet per minute. Think about it this way….it would take over 14 60mm fans working hard just to feed this 2 liter, and that’s not even creating any boost.


*People confuse BOOST with AIRFLOW, if you don’t ever go above 14.7psi, you are not boosting. You might only see power because of the increase in VE, a vivid example is vtec (variable valve timing focused on scavenging principles and different rockers and lift durations)


so whats some ways to improve an VE? The best way is ‘forced induction’, causing a VE of OVER 100%, a variable valve timing like vtec does the same thing to a certain extent. But who cares about vtec? I wont go into it. Point is, If you have more air in the engine than it can even can consume, you have a boost pressure. Increasing VE to 120, 180, 200% means that much more fuel which means that much more power



now…..e-boost:
it connects and runs off the 12 volt on the battery. As you know…supercharging robs some power from the motor, and a highly efficient supercharger takes about 14.5kw to run. It steals this from the power generated to the crank due to the power stroke. On the other hand…to have an electric motor that runs off the 12 volt battery generating that many watts (14000+) we'd need a current flow of at least 1000 amps (14,000+ watts/13.8 volts = 1050 amps. So for this to even work….you’d need like 10 alternators!!! Let alone a serious fuckin compressor, not a fan

So remember kids…airflow does NOT equal boost, e-turvo can die a healthy death now, k thanks.

_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic: Pages 1 | 2
SPL_EclipseMar-24-04 02:54 PM
Member since Mar 11th 2002
5921 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71390, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 0
Mar-24-04 02:55 PM by SPL_Eclipse

          

i agree w/ everything you said except for this:

"It steals this from the power generated to the crank due to the power stroke."

power is not "stolen", youve just increased the efficiency of the system. power is (in your words) "stolen" by means of an elctronic turbo because there are so many steps used to transform that power. everytime you change "power" (mechanical, electrical, heat, light, etc..) you waste a little bit. w/ an e-turbo, you arent increasing the efficiency of ANYTHING, you are just sucking on resources and wasting them to produce next to nothing.

edit: i just realized that what i wrote makes next to no sence. hope you can understand it, lol.

:shhh: i do cocaine :/shhh:

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

CollenteMar-24-04 03:02 PM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71391, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 1


          

that was way to fuckin much to read...



Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?
turbo8u> yea i was a window licker on the short bus in junior high

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

turbo8uMar-24-04 03:08 PM
Member since Jun 15th 2003
10552 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71393, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 1




          

Originally posted by SPL_Eclipse
"It steals this from the power generated to the crank due to the power stroke." power is not "stolen


the additional weight on the rotating assembly would cause power loss, yes. (superchargers are powered by belts) i wasnt talking about e-turbos robbing power, they just rob amps, and dont do jack shit.



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

SPL_EclipseMar-24-04 03:53 PM
Member since Mar 11th 2002
5921 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71404, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 3


          

^^yeah, we are saying the same thing, i was just being nitpicky, lol. this will go into the "things weve seen before section", if for nothing else the description of VE and how it works.

:shhh: i do cocaine :/shhh:

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

GhEttOrAiDMar-24-04 04:03 PM
Member since Oct 22nd 2002
1226 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71405, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 0


          

save me from rereading all that (I did read it..)

if I don't run at least 14.7 psi by 7200rpm I'm not really boosting?

I think you're misusing the word boost, because ANY increase in airflow will, by your theory be INCREASING the volumetric efficiency (more horsepower) ... but anyway

FS: 2.5" Test Pipe 25 shipped

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Matt_95tgsMar-24-04 04:34 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1246 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71409, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 0
Mar-24-04 04:54 PM by Matt_95tgs

          

Originally posted by turbo8u
*People confuse BOOST with AIRFLOW, if you don’t ever go above 14.7psi, you are not boosting. You might only see power because of the increase in VE, a vivid example is vtec (variable valve timing focused on scavenging principles and different rockers and lift durations) so whats some ways to improve an VE?


Are you referring to 14.7 psi on a boost gauge?? If so, then this statement is way off. Boost gauges are calibrated to read 0 vac at 1 atm. When the gauge reads 14.7 psi, you are way over 100% VE.

I agree though that e-turbos and all equivalents are made strictly to make money off of suckers. The scary thing though is that I'll bet they make a lot of money hahaha.

B.T.W., You calculate Volumetric Efficiency by dividing the mass of air inducted into the cylinder between IVO and IVC by the mass of air that would fill the cylinder at atmospheric pressure (with the piston at BDC). Typical values range from 0.6 to 1.2, or 60% to 120%. You can't really calculate VE by HP, RPM and displacement. You might be able to get close, but it doesnt take into account variables like pumping losses, parasitic drag, thermodynamic efficiency and a few other things. It isn't that uncommon to get over 100% VE with a NA motor.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

UberingramMar-24-04 04:36 PM
Donating 2GNT member
10001 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71410, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 6
Mar-24-04 04:36 PM by Uberingram

          

Originally posted by Matt_95tgs
Boost gauges are calibrated to read 0 vac at 1 atm.


Just becuase I'm a no0b in training...

atm = atmosphere, right?

__________________________________________
~Chris
03 SRT-4

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

SPL_EclipseMar-24-04 04:40 PM
Member since Mar 11th 2002
5921 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71411, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 7


          

^^yes

turbo8u is assuming this in the entire discussion. its s simplified version, but really hits on the main points. great job, IMO (or at least as i understand things, lol).

:shhh: i do cocaine :/shhh:

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

WickedESiMar-24-04 05:40 PM
Donating 2GNT member
3090 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71414, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 8
Mar-24-04 05:43 PM by WickedESi



          

No you guys are misunderstanding him.

Atm pressure is 14.7 psi, meaning for your boost gauge to read 1 psi, the ACTUAL pressure in your system is 15.7 psi @ sea level.


So turbo8u, are you saying I should buy 14 turvos? The turvo guy is gonna redesign it, making the whale **** looking intake just a row of turvo's.


Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

GhEttOrAiDMar-24-04 06:24 PM
Member since Oct 22nd 2002
1226 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#71415, "RE: a technical discussion"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Originally posted by WickedESi
No you guys are misunderstanding him. Atm pressure is 14.7 psi, meaning for your boost gauge to read 1 psi, the ACTUAL pressure in your system is 15.7 psi @ sea level. So turbo8u, are you saying I should buy 14 turvos? The turvo guy is gonna redesign it, making the whale **** looking intake just a row of turvo's.


ahhhhhhhhhhh ok now i get it

FS: 2.5" Test Pipe 25 shipped

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine topic #71386 1 | 2 | Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.2
Copyright 1997-2003 DCScripts.com

I generated this page in 0.087634801864624 seconds, executing 12 queries.