Ok here is a link to a good thread about it. I'll post more detailed info tonight when I get home.http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=baf9cb2831dd63ab596426d8045bb740&threadid=31111&highlight=liftersBTW the thread popped up while I was searching for something else, so that is why the word 'lifters' is highlighted.