Rather than talk about it, just see and hear for yourself. I recorded its antics.

http://www.allsyntax.com/pics/eclipse.avi (right-click --> save target as)

once warmed up, runs completely fine.

Here are the things that have been replaced:

ECU
MFI & ASD relays
Cam sensor + clip
crank sensor + clip
coolant temp sensor
Front 02 sensor
IAC
cracked pcv hose
air filter
spark plugs
coilpack


tried exchanging map sensor w/ another and speed sensor w/ another but neither changed anything. Same goes with TPS as well.

any feedback is much appreciated. I just dont know where to go next... would be nice to get the computer read or something to see whats going on.

for those who dont download the video...

i try to start, and it wont unless i sort of pump the gas why starting. After it starts, if I keep on the pedal it'll stay started. After a little bit It'll idle on its own. But then if I press the gas it'll bog-down and cut out and try to die. And as mentioned before, once it warms up it idles fine?

EGR related? Did you do a compression test? Clogged cat?


Brian

i knew I'd forget something in the list...

the ERG TUBE is not clogged. What else ERG related could cause it? the solenoid deal up front that has vac lines attached to it?

have not done a compression test (dont have the tools).

Originally posted by .bs0d
i knew I'd forget something in the list... the ERG TUBE is not clogged. What else ERG related could cause it? the solenoid deal up front that has vac lines attached to it? have not done a compression test (dont have the tools).

Compression testers only cost $20-30. You've thrown this much money at it already, what's another couple of bucks?

Is it cold out? At temperatures below zero, the warmup afr can be as low as 4:1 because most of the fuel doesnt atomize and is just passed through the system and out the exhaust. When the engine is warmed up, most or all of the fuel atomizes and the computer adjusts the afr towards stoich. It could be that upon starting/running the car after sitting for a while and its running pig rich to warm up quicker, the IAC isnt opening to allow extra airflow so it doesnt flood out. Just a thought.

Oh yeah, and my roommate wanted me to tell you the reason you're having problems is because your flux capacitor is bad...yeah

just go rent the compression guage/hose from your local autozone. $35 bucks, and you get your money back once you return it. simple.

Ok where to go next.

Basics?
partially clogged injectors and/or fuel filter


What i would want to do is get the car on a scanner and see what values you have on the sensors for cold as opposed to warm. That may point in a specific direction. I would also want to see where the car starts to idle fine. Does it clear up once the ecu goes into closed loop or just a specific temp. Is the condition it clears consistant?

When cold the ECU works with a set enrichment. The ECU doesnt monitor mixture to conpensate. When warm the ECU reads o2 and adjusts the mixture to meet the targe AFR. That could be why you dont feel the problems at high rpms liek you normally would with clogged injectors. Then again it might be leanign out top end and you just dont realize it. Poss bad gas as well.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Ok where to go next. Basics? partially clogged injectors and/or fuel filter What i would want to do is get the car on a scanner and see what values you have on the sensors for cold as opposed to warm. That may point in a specific direction. I would also want to see where the car starts to idle fine. Does it clear up once the ecu goes into closed loop or just a specific temp. Is the condition it clears consistant? When cold the ECU works with a set enrichment. The ECU doesnt monitor mixture to conpensate. When warm the ECU reads o2 and adjusts the mixture to meet the targe AFR. That could be why you dont feel the problems at high rpms liek you normally would with clogged injectors. Then again it might be leanign out top end and you just dont realize it. Poss bad gas as well. Terry

I think he said it a little better than I did ^^^

ok i think my flux-capacitor is fine ;) haha

oh and it was like 50 outside when i recorded that video.

other than that i'll pick up a compression tester and get back to this thread with the numbers (if it even matters).

also, i'll try to get my hands on a logger. I dont have one, dunno who lives close that has one. Im in Southeast Kansas.

Thanks for the info- Its been a real bitch, hopefully I can get it lined out?

the fuel filter has under 500 miles on it.

Where at in SE Kansas? I'm in NW Arkansas and have an obd2 logger. Maybe we can meet up if you haven't fixed it yet?

Edit: Sorry, wrong login! This is Cody (DSMxTSi).

im in independence, ks

I think you're my only way to get this thing scanned. How far away are you, is it a big deal to come down?

Originally posted by .bs0d
I think you're my only way to get this thing scanned. How far away are you, is it a big deal to come down?

I assume you were referring to me?
I checked Google maps and it says 134 miles from me to you. I'm not sure how soon I can get there. Gabe was going to check your car tonight(?). If he can't figure something out then we can arrange something soon.

Yeah, I initially suspected the warm up tables/enrichment that the ECU has. That sounds EXACTLY like what mind sounds like right now--but I have megasquirt and need some fine tuning on my priming pulse and afterstart enrichments. Buuuut, mine doesn't die after it runs. Once it starts, it runs perfectly, cold or not. So, my warmup enrichments are dialed in.

I guess I'd be surprised it both the old AND new ECU's had problems with their warmup tables and such.

Question: You replaced the coolant temp sensor. Did you replace the right one? There's one for the gauge and one for the ECU.


Brian

Yea I believe I replaced the right one. looked much like this:

http://www.pe-ltd.com/images/coolant_temp.jp g

Originally posted by ForceFed420a
Yeah, I initially suspected the warm up tables/enrichment that the ECU has. That sounds EXACTLY like what mind sounds like right now--but I have megasquirt and need some fine tuning on my priming pulse and afterstart enrichments. Buuuut, mine doesn't die after it runs. Once it starts, it runs perfectly, cold or not. So, my warmup enrichments are dialed in. I guess I'd be surprised it both the old AND new ECU's had problems with their warmup tables and such. Question: You replaced the coolant temp sensor. Did you replace the right one? There's one for the gauge and one for the ECU. Brian

Where do you see anyone saying the ECU has a problem in the warmup table? The catory ECU is not as simple as a megasquirt. I never siad there was anything wrong with the ECU go re-read it.

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Where do you see anyone saying the ECU has a problem in the warmup table? The catory ECU is not as simple as a megasquirt. I never siad there was anything wrong with the ECU go re-read it.

Ahh, I see. Hook the scanner up to see what the ECU sees. Then proceed to diagnose.

Sorry about that, misread the post.

Brian

Originally posted by .bs0d
ok i think my flux-capacitor is fine ;) haha oh and it was like 50 outside when i recorded that video. other than that i'll pick up a compression tester and get back to this thread with the numbers (if it even matters). also, i'll try to get my hands on a logger. I dont have one, dunno who lives close that has one. Im in Southeast Kansas. Thanks for the info- Its been a real bitch, hopefully I can get it lined out? the fuel filter has under 500 miles on it.

Do you have a college near by or even a little community college with an auto program near you. Just say your car is running like crap and go to that college and theyll diagnose it for ya. A couple times a week we get student vehicles in that wont start or run like hell and we'll take a look at it.

yea, theres a tech school close by. I'll give them a call and see if they do that. I need to get my suspension fixed first, but if it comes to it and they will look at it for free, i'll take it by there.

thanks

dude I have a similar problem, except mine doesn't die and starts fine. I am going to go pick up a scanner form sears and return it later. But non the less come back and let us know what the problem was.

mine was doing something similar a very long time ago. ended up being bad map sensor. It was intermittently giving out whacky values.
Maybe try unplugging the map see if you get similar behavior..?
also maybe try cleaning it out. Just some suggestions seeing as how you've covered alot of the basics.

A compression test would also be in order if it hasnt been preformed yet.

Check the intake Manifold gasket's, you might have a hole in it and clean your TB and the intake Manifold if you take it out. Look at all the vaccum line for cracks and clean the map sensor and also THANKS A LOT for the ECU you saved me alot of money bro.

As for the sensors, you can check them using a regular voltmeter.

Ok. My check engine light is NOT working...

Going to replace it this weekend, and likely pick up an OBDII logger and see what she comes up with.

I'll also rent the tool and do a compression test. Will post all results at least by monday. Thanks

Gabe come over this weekend. Checked the light: entire thing was missing. Could have fallen out, but not really any place for it to go. Anyways, we put the SRS light in its place to read any cels.

Tried the Keydance, and it showed: 12, 36, 55 if I remember correctly. I think those don't amount to anything. One is because the ECU I bought was not flashed (Thanks for telling me btw, WickedESi).

Anyways, The car is running really rich, and f'in up the spark-plugs. We traded out his map sensor w/ mine and it seemed to help. By that I mean it seemed to start easier, but was still running rich.

maybe I have an injector thats just pouring gas?

thats the latest, thanks

Originally posted by .bs0d
maybe I have an injector thats just pouring gas?

Were all four plugs really bad though?


Brian

It seems as if you've replaced/swapped most of the sensors. The only one I can think of that you haven't mentioned is the intake air temperature sensor on the back of the intake manifold. That could be the culprit but the video makes me think of something more along the lines of fuel related. Do you have any known good injectors to swap? Maybe Gabe could loan his for an afternoon? How old is the fuel filter? Check the fuel lines if that IAT sensor turns out to be good. There could be a pinched line that opens up once she's warmed up.

ok. The fuel filter is new...I'll test the IAT, it could be bad. Hope not though: $80+!!

I'll also check out the fuel lines. I still gotta do a compression test and check the rest of the plugs.

i'll post again with results, thanks for the input

I have an IAT you can have, I'm not sure if it's good or not. Have Gabe get ahold of me if you do not have any luck getting a live time scanner. I'll see if I can nab one from Pitt.

Ok, i'll swap w/ gabes' car and see if that helps or fixes the problem. Then I can give your IAT sensor a try. Thanks

Logger could help. Monitor each sensor one by one while the problem is occuring. If it is a sensor, there will definetally be a significant change when the problem is occuring. Those drops are pretty erratic. Check ALL of your sensor connections for loose/broken connectors.

Maybe this will sound stupid, but is your throttle body clean? :)

I had a somewhat similar problem when I bought my car, the solution was cleaning the TB to brand new look and replacing the IAC.

Originally posted by Erik
I have an IAT you can have, I'm not sure if it's good or not. Have Gabe get ahold of me if you do not have any luck getting a live time scanner. I'll see if I can nab one from Pitt.

havent been able to get in touch with gabe to do the swap with the IAT. if you can still send it i'll give it a try.

still no logger available to log the ECU...

connections on sensor all seem good...

Throttle body is clean and I've also replaced my IAC already and it didnt change the problem...

Also, I put in new plugs, the $8 NGK ones. Seemed better afterwards, but I think its still running rich and the new plugs are likely already shit.

Car still hates to start after setting for over 8 hours or so. During the day like when I go to lunch and come home from work, the starting is much better. Still rough at first, but much better than if it has set over-night.

Man I've been elbows and assholes for the past few days. I haven't sent you the IAT yet. I could just make a day trip over there and see if I can get a snap-on scanner, my buddy just left that has the keys to Pitt's 4 yr tech side, but I'll see if somebody else has a set. Lemme know.

ok that sounds fine with me. i can make arrangements to when you are available or whatever best works.

you can get ahold of Gabe and he can get ahold of me with any information or status on the scanner or IAT sensor. thanks for helping

I can't get ahold of a scanner. I can pull the IAT out of my manifold. I'll bring a DVOM too. How's sunday? I can pull just about any sensor b/c my head is off. I have both O2's out too. I'm trying to get my house together so I can get ready to move.

ok sunday is cool. i already replaced my front 02 sensor though...

Since my suspension is now fixed, I've been able to drive my car more often. The weather has been pretty nice lately and it seems like the symptom of bad startup was getting better.

Well, this morning it was kind of cold, and when I started the car up - it was acting like before in the video (trying to die and picks itself back up several times).

So Im thinking the cold weather makes it act worse. Does this point to a more specific area or direct problem, or just cloud things up even more?

Thanks,

Did you ever end up replacing the IAT?


Brian

negative, i got eriks, but his has a different type of clip than mine? he got it off a spare intake and dont know what year. I can say its not 95 ;) if the wiring is the same, i'd need the clip that goes too it to use that sensor

Hate to say it..but my ESi did this as well a week before I spun a rod bearing. Had practically the same symptoms-had to keep my foot on the gas on start-up or it would die, but would be fine after the car warmed up and ran for a bit. I dreaded having to stop at lights and signs for fear it would die. I just assumed it was a fuel issue at the time and scheduled it for service..shop told me that they could fit the appointment in the week after, and like I said, it never made it. Bearing entirely went and car sounded like a tin can in a blender. Anyway, have you checked your oil at all for shavings?

I can do that next oil change... but im gonna say that I dont have any

Hey man. Ive been having the SAME problem - exactly. Although mine is not as bad. I just recently had a huge breakthrough. Check your ground connection. Make sure the ground cables that connect to the starter/bellhousing have a good solid conenction with your battery. My engine had terrible grounding, after that it started much much better. I still have a sensor out I believe, and my car runs very rich nad has slight hesitation problems- but grounding the engine well gave my car a new heart it almost feels. SInce youve tried so many things, I strongly recommend a ground kit or at least that you look into that.

Ive replaced so far:

Map sensor
Plugs (which keep fouling cause it runs rich)
Plug wires
Front 02 sensor

IOm trying my PCV valve, TPS, collant temp and IAC soon...

Man..it sucks..

Ok thanks for the tip, Ryan.

The idle has changed significantly since the video. Maybe since i've been able to drive it more it seems? But what it does now is try to die at least once within the first few minutes of running - but catches itself. If i hurry up and try to leave before a few min. have passed, it'll bog down and cut out at least once within a block of taking it on the road.

Additionally, sometimes it seems like the idle hangs a bit after coming to a rolling stop, not all the time though.

Could the knock sensor be an issue here? About one of the only ones i have not looked into.