I want to post this here, so everyone can see it..I'm trying to get some clear info on these clutches..If you have one laying around, take a quick look at it for me. You want to be looking for a brand name marking on it, one is on the front of the pressure plate, its rather small, stamped onto it, towards the outer front edge. It will either say "Luk" or "sachs". Now, flip over the clutch, and look for the markings on the flywheel, "luk" or "sachs". I need to know both brand names, on both sides. Just trying to back up some info i'm researching..

Sachs on both sides. The clutch came out of a 97 Talon.

Originally posted by run4cvr
Sachs on both sides. The clutch came out of a 97 Talon.

yeah... mine! And I'm surprised you could read that solid ingot of rust at this point John. :P

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by run4cvr Sachs on both sides. The clutch came out of a 97 Talon.

yeah... mine! And I'm surprised you could read that solid ingot of rust at this point John. :P

Cordless drill and a wire brush attachment :thumbsup

Originally posted by run4cvr
Sachs on both sides. The clutch came out of a 97 Talon.

Thank you sir! Anyone else? Anyone with a Luk?

I have a LuK in my car right now, I'll be taking it out in about a week. When I do I can take a look at it, get some pics, whatever.

98 Modular Talon. Sachs on both sides here too.

Obviously, I have that Non-modular Luk pressure plate in my car right now, though. It's always held great for me. The Sachs one did too, though.

Just for the purpose of this discussion, I counted the number of pressure plate fingers on both. They're both the same number at 18 fingers apiece, although they do look slightly different.

Hey thanks for that info Jason..My main purpose for this info, was to clear up the issues with the differences between these two clutch parts from Luk and Sachs..I guess now I have found out all the correct info..If anyone has not seen it yet, techboy's thread in the trans section about him having issues with bolting a Clutch Master's PP to a modular flywheel, was not working right, er not bolting up right. This was a good time for this info to come up, since I am going to do the same thing(buy a CM pressure plate meant for a non mod Neon), and bolt my own seudo clutch together, just like i am using at the moment. But in a nutshell, here is what I found out...

Luk and Sachs are the only two "brands" of clutches the NVT-350 uses. ONLY Luk pressure plates are used on the non modular clutch setups, and Sachs are mainly used for the modular, but sometimes the Luk plate is also used, but its less common. But here is the interesting part: There is around a 1/4" contact surface height difference between the luk and sachs flywheels..and also, the actual "thickness" of the pressure plates between the two. The Sachs pressure plate is the "thicker" of the two, and the Sachs flyweel is the "thinner" of the two, and vise versa. So a "thick" pressure plate needs a "thin" flywheel,(and again, vise versa) to make it all work properly. This means that a Luk pressure plate, needs to mate with a Luk flywheel, either a modular, OR non modular flywheel, as they are the same contact surface height wise. And also, a Sachs pressure plate needs a Sachs flywheel. So to sum it all up, Clutch masters specifically uses worked over LUK pressure plates, esp on the non modular units. As for their "modular" rivited units, I'm not sure, but it seems they use the Sachs plate.

So, if anyone wants to go with this custom type of clutch setup, just be aware of what you need to make it work right. AFAIK, CM does not sell a Sachs plate that is used in their modular clutches, separately, which means you will have to buy the LUK meant for the non mod Neon setup. This means you HAVE to use a LUK modular flywheel from a rivited LUK clutch assembly. They are harder to come by, but are out there..Some of you may ask why do this, and the answer is simple: By using a modular flywheel, that when the rivits are drilled out, and then tapped/bolted together, you can retain the stock flexplate(starter plate)for ease of transmission removal/installation, AND have the convienence of a replaceable cltuch disk, at a much lower cost than forking over 700+ for a CM stage 4..

And just to add - although CM does make a Luk PP and clutch disk for the modular 2GNT, as of my last phone call to them they are NOT making a flywheel. That means you will HAVE to find a modular Luk assembly and drill it apart to get the flywheel, or find one from a Neon. It seems to me it might be worth CM's money to make a modular Luk flywheel for our cars since they are so hard to come by. They would probably end up selling more clutches! Speaking of neons, CM does make some flywheels for the Neon, but I don't know if they'd work for this application or not. I believe they are $425 - not cheap.

So, just to sum up for you guys - You need to use a SACHS PP with a SACHS FW and a Luk PP with a Luk FW. Don't find out the hard way like I did and be out a whole ton of cash.

It seems so simple now, but it took a week and alot of discussion to figure that out. Thanks again to XtremeRS for his help on this matter.

good info to know. It just so happens I have a LUK assembly in my garage and actually a close friend who is a mechanical engineer for LUK. It sounds like the "mystery" has been solved, however I'll call him if more info is requested.


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know me as santiago
boosted 420a and ej2o..(my 2liter v8 eaters)

Interesting... maybe it explains why my clutch seems to never have worked exactly right. It engages and disengages very very high and it seems that it's never really held much power even though it's a custom 5 puck ceramic w/ a sprung hub.

So, do you have any idea what brand the fidanza flywheel is made for? I put my AL fidanza flywheel w/ a LUK pressure plate and custom disk along w/ slight shims (to get the flywheel surface to the correct point b/c the clutch disk was supposedly slightly thick for strength.

I plan on removing the shims when I take it out next and seeing if that helps it, but if the two pressure plates are 1/4" difference, maybe I should try the sachs...? have any thoughts on this?

I got 10 bucks in my wallet right now that says the Fidanza is SACHS based and that's why your clutch is funny. I only say that b/c most of the 2gnt units are Sachs, so it would make sense for Fidanza to manufacture them that way.

Hey corsagsbo, you interested in selling the Luk unit in your garage? I have a CM clutch that's not doing me any good right now.

Originally posted by techboy
I got 10 bucks in my wallet right now that says the Fidanza is SACHS based and that's why your clutch is funny. I only say that b/c most of the 2gnt units are Sachs, so it would make sense for Fidanza to manufacture them that way. Hey corsagsbo, you interested in selling the Luk unit in your garage? I have a CM clutch that's not doing me any good right now.

Thanks for the offer.. but I'm having my guy at LUK look into this scenerio in detail. I want to see what facings he can get his hands on that may work.


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know me as santiago
boosted 420a and ej2o..(my 2liter v8 eaters)

Originally posted by corsagsbo
Thanks for the offer.. but I'm having my guy at LUK look into this scenerio in detail. I want to see what facings he can get his hands on that may work.

Instead, you should see if your guy at LUK could offer a Pressure plate with some ballsy diaphram springs instead. No more of this 1000lb. pressure plate nonsense.

Originally posted by JasonESi_T

Originally posted by corsagsbo Thanks for the offer.. but I'm having my guy at LUK look into this scenerio in detail. I want to see what facings he can get his hands on that may work.

Instead, you should see if your guy at LUK could offer a Pressure plate with some ballsy diaphram springs instead. No more of this 1000lb. pressure plate nonsense.

exactly... I just received his phone call and he is going through his REP catalog while checking load tolerances and thermal capacities for the facings. I also asked him on addressing the PP..stay tuned...

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know me as santiago
boosted 420a and ej2o..(my 2liter v8 eaters)

Originally posted by mkerley
Interesting... maybe it explains why my clutch seems to never have worked exactly right. It engages and disengages very very high and it seems that it's never really held much power even though it's a custom 5 puck ceramic w/ a sprung hub. So, do you have any idea what brand the fidanza flywheel is made for? I put my AL fidanza flywheel w/ a LUK pressure plate and custom disk along w/ slight shims (to get the flywheel surface to the correct point b/c the clutch disk was supposedly slightly thick for strength. I plan on removing the shims when I take it out next and seeing if that helps it, but if the two pressure plates are 1/4" difference, maybe I should try the sachs...? have any thoughts on this?

Here is a pic of Matt_95tgs's Spec PP and Fidanza light aluminum flywheel. That pressure plate is a LUK for sure..I would take those shims out and see what happnes..Most of these aftermarket clutches, the engagement point is usually right at the top of the clutch pedal travel..its normal, esp when using a worked over PP like CM or Spec, where as to increase the clamp load, then change the lever fulcrum point to increase clamp pressure. This fulcrum point change, make the PP travel more, with less input travel(clutch fork). Simple lever physics..



Here is a pic of the Sachs PP: Look at the area on the outside of the metal fingers on the blue spec one above(luk), and then look at the same area on the sachs..the sachs doesnt have those roudish meatal tabs on it..



Here is a pic of the sachs modular flywheel:



Here is a pic of the LUK modular flywheel: notice the difference on the outer edge of the LUk fly compared to the sachs fly

Well, shit!

There you go, the SACHS flywheel doesn't have a step height at all. And if there is one, I can't find it.

And why is one of you using shims?? And if you are, is it to compensate for the lack of a step on the SACHS Flywheel?

Just an FYI, my 95 non-modular neon flywheel (unaware if it's a SACHS or a LUK) has a step height of about 0.33 IIRC. Stock step height from a little research at neons.org is 0.30.

I'm still contemplating the theory of using a modified 4g63 pressure plate (ACT 2100 or so) with a 6 puck sprung 420a clutch disk and a neon non-modular flywheel. And then use the appropriate 4g63 step height for that pressure plate.

Originally posted by JasonESi_T
Well, shit! There you go, the SACHS flywheel doesn't have a step height at all. And if there is one, I can't find it. And why is one of you using shims?? And if you are, is it to compensate for the lack of a step on the SACHS Flywheel? Just an FYI, my 95 non-modular neon flywheel (unaware if it's a SACHS or a LUK) has a step height of about 0.33 IIRC. Stock step height from a little research at neons.org is 0.30. I'm still contemplating the theory of using a modified 4g63 pressure plate (ACT 2100 or so) with a 6 puck sprung 420a clutch disk and a neon non-modular flywheel. And then use the appropriate 4g63 step height for that pressure plate.

Yep, thats the correct step height for a Luk. Sachs step height is .300, which is over a 1/4" difference..I believe that is for the Sachs PP though..Oh and Jason, your 95 non mod flywheel, HAS to be a LUK, since only a LUK PP can properly bolt up to it..From all this info, there are NO sachs PP's that were used with non modular clutches for these transmissions.

This is a little bit of differnt question, but does anyone with an Exedy clutch know if it is SACHS or LUK based? Can someone look for me. Thanks.

Jason,
I'm using a shim b/c Dan at Clutch Dynamics said that the disk he gave me is a little thicker than stock. Therefore, since I was using a brand new lightened flywheel, he didn't want me to have it machined down to the .330 step height that he had you do. Instead, I shimmed it back off the surface. It's the same effect.

My flywheel looks like the last picture above.. This one:


I should have a LUK PP I believe. I'll try just removing the shims. Maybe he's wrong about the need for them. He never saw the flywheel. I understand that many of yours engage very high, but mine doesn't grab very well. Never has. If I drop the clutch from 3K, it just makes an awful grinding sound which I'm assuming is the disk sliding around the flywheel surface. I think there's just not enough engagement, so hopefully removing those shims will fix that. Sound right?

Originally posted by mkerley
I should have a LUK PP I believe. I'll try just removing the shims. Maybe he's wrong about the need for them. He never saw the flywheel. I understand that many of yours engage very high, but mine doesn't grab very well. Never has. If I drop the clutch from 3K, it just makes an awful grinding sound which I'm assuming is the disk sliding around the flywheel surface. I think there's just not enough engagement, so hopefully removing those shims will fix that. Sound right?

Do you have any pics of your PP at all? By looking at the PP pics I posted above, can you decern which one you got from Dan? See this is the strange thing..I'm actually on my 3rd clutch from Dan. The first and second ones, were built using a Sachs PP, and LUK fly for some reason..I just dont get it. Technically, that combination is using both the "thick" pieces, but it worked..Now on the second one he did, I got this AWFULL grinding, mostly screetching sound at the friction point...Like if you were to have the car on a hill, and use just enough clutch to keep it still, it would make the noise...I'm almost positive it had something to do with the mis-matched pieces..Maybe its possible to bolt a Sachs PP to a Luk fly with some machining, but trying to bolt a LUK PP to a sachs fly, just flat out doesn't work..I'm very curious to know what PP you have on your car..Technically, you *should* be using the Luk PP, since your lightened fly is supposed to mate with the LUK PP..

If your shims are causing an issue, I would think that with the very lightest amount of clutch pedal depression, that it would disengage your clutch. If the shims are causing the PP to be at a farther distance from the fly, then it would barely take any clutch fork travel to disengage it. Is this the case?

IMO, it all comes down to the step height. Shim or no shim, there is an absolute measurement from the flywheel facing to the thickness of the clutch facing, to the facing of the pressure plate. The only adjustable parameter within those, is the flywheel step height, so whether you get it turned or not, I would STILL under any circumstance, have the flywheel measured to determine what the step height is. Then evaluate the thickness of the clutch disk and see where you're at.

I imagine the PP is a fairly irrelevant variable. It should have it's facing at close to the flushness of whatever the mounting surface is at.

Originally posted by XtremeRS

Originally posted by mkerley I should have a LUK PP I believe. I'll try just removing the shims. Maybe he's wrong about the need for them. He never saw the flywheel. I understand that many of yours engage very high, but mine doesn't grab very well. Never has. If I drop the clutch from 3K, it just makes an awful grinding sound which I'm assuming is the disk sliding around the flywheel surface. I think there's just not enough engagement, so hopefully removing those shims will fix that. Sound right?

Do you have any pics of your PP at all? By looking at the PP pics I posted above, can you decern which one you got from Dan? See this is the strange thing..I'm actually on my 3rd clutch from Dan. The first and second ones, were built using a Sachs PP, and LUK fly for some reason..I just dont get it. Technically, that combination is using both the "thick" pieces, but it worked..Now on the second one he did, I got this AWFULL grinding, mostly screetching sound at the friction point...Like if you were to have the car on a hill, and use just enough clutch to keep it still, it would make the noise...I'm almost positive it had something to do with the mis-matched pieces..Maybe its possible to bolt a Sachs PP to a Luk fly with some machining, but trying to bolt a LUK PP to a sachs fly, just flat out doesn't work..I'm very curious to know what PP you have on your car..Technically, you *should* be using the Luk PP, since your lightened fly is supposed to mate with the LUK PP.. If your shims are causing an issue, I would think that with the very lightest amount of clutch pedal depression, that it would disengage your clutch. If the shims are causing the PP to be at a farther distance from the fly, then it would barely take any clutch fork travel to disengage it. Is this the case?

OK. Jason first. My step height was measured. It was .300, and he told me to shim it to set it at .330 which I did.

Xtreme: Mine engages and disengages just fine. It's grabby like I suppose it should be. It does dis/engage very very high. If I simply rest my foot on the clutch pedal I can cause it to slip. It's come to the point that I have to put my foot on the floor when I'm not using the clutch b/c the lightest amount of pressure can make it slip while accelerating. However, it only makes that awful noise when I drop the clutch at higher RPM's, not on daily driving.

Here are pics of my clutch:

Yeah, you have the LUK PP..sould be perfect for your flywheel..I guess I'd have to trust Dan's judgement on the shims, esp if the step height was measured. My clutch is like yours too, I mean, I can disengage it with very, very little clutch pedal travel. I don't really care, as this makes for faster shifting :) Have you removed your clutch slave cylinder restrictor? I know that helped me with really fast shifts, because the clutch had issues getting hung up on really fast shifts..was not fully releasing the slave cylinder, causeing me to slip terribly, to the point of not even moving the car at all..this only happend on several occasions though, but it doenst slip anymore, and i'm running around 3-4 more psi boost..Does your clutch slip at all?

Just to add to this nice little picture parade for the purposes of future reference:

LUK PP:


6-puck ceramic:


Non-modular flywheel:

It doesn't slip under normal driving conditions, but I can't get the tires to break loose. The clutch will make that horrible noise before the tires spin, which I can only presume is it slipping. If that's the case, my clutch doens't hold a whole lot of TQ. It doesn't slip other than when I drop it, but I'm also only running 7psi. I have a feeling that once the rebuild is done and I turn it up, I will have issues if I leave it as is.

Weren't you the one that was trying the ferramic? How did that turn out?

*/ No. I haven't removed the restrictor. I may though. Is there a writeup on it? I'll search, but I haven't yet b/c I'm here typing :) */

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Yeah, you have the LUK PP..sould be perfect for your flywheel..I guess I'd have to trust Dan's judgement on the shims, esp if the step height was measured. My clutch is like yours too, I mean, I can disengage it with very, very little clutch pedal travel. I don't really care, as this makes for faster shifting :) Have you removed your clutch slave cylinder restrictor? I know that helped me with really fast shifts, because the clutch had issues getting hung up on really fast shifts..was not fully releasing the slave cylinder, causeing me to slip terribly, to the point of not even moving the car at all..this only happend on several occasions though, but it doenst slip anymore, and i'm running around 3-4 more psi boost..Does your clutch slip at all?

It would be interesting to hear this sound you are describing..any way you can get a sound file of it? If its doing that at only 7 psi, then something isnt right..Crap, I ran 10 psi for a short while on the stock clutch without one issue..I'm at 15 psi now on my 4 puck ceramic, LUK PP and fly, and its doing ok for now..

As for the restrictor, just follow the fluid line to the slave cylinder, and where the line goes into it, take out that banjo bolt, and behind that, is a small piece of metal with tiny hole in it, and a small spring behind the metal that is attached to the restrictor. Just take that out, put the line back on, and bleed the clutch lines. Simple as that. Just be sure to bleed it very well.

hmm just FYI,

I have a spec stage 3 modular 6 puck in my car which i thought was a LUK pressure plate but it looks NOTHING like the CM or the SPEC PP you have in those pictures. Mine had ramps formed into the pressure plate not circles. I have a CM 4 in my garage too, that pressure plate looks just like the pictures you posted, but my pp from the spec is not the same ass that shown in the picture.

lates
james

I'll take that restrictor out once I get this clutch issue solved...or during the engine swap. I'll see if I can get my laptop and mic out to the car and get a clip of it (if the rain stops :rolleyes)

Originally posted by XtremeRS
It would be interesting to hear this sound you are describing..any way you can get a sound file of it? If its doing that at only 7 psi, then something isnt right..Crap, I ran 10 psi for a short while on the stock clutch without one issue..I'm at 15 psi now on my 4 puck ceramic, LUK PP and fly, and its doing ok for now.. As for the restrictor, just follow the fluid line to the slave cylinder, and where the line goes into it, take out that banjo bolt, and behind that, is a small piece of metal with tiny hole in it, and a small spring behind the metal that is attached to the restrictor. Just take that out, put the line back on, and bleed the clutch lines. Simple as that. Just be sure to bleed it very well.

OK. Here's the sound file. The noise is right at about 7 sec into it. SOrry for the pathetic recording, but it's the best my cheap little mic will do...:shrug

http://mkerley.home.insightbb.com/sounds/clutch1.mp3

and for the record, my stock clutch ('99 GS) is a sachs.

my stock clutch doesn't say anything :shrug

Yeah, the stock PP doesn't say anything on it. The SACHS label is on teh back of the flywheel.

My stock clutch has an S on the pressure plate. My new PT clutch has LUK all over it though, on both sides.

Originally posted by techboy
Yeah, the stock PP doesn't say anything on it. The SACHS label is on teh back of the flywheel.

My 98' modular clutch also has SACHS inscribed on the PP. You have to look REAL close on the top side of it. It's there though.

sachs and luk here
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons